Society & Culture - 15 November 2007

2007-11-15 05:30:45 · 9 answers · asked by realchurchhistorian 4 in Religion & Spirituality

Lets call the people who believe "once saved , always saved", as believers in Eternal Security, and those who do not as Probationists. I believe there are areas where both groups still essentially agree and I believe there can be gross error in extremes of both positions, that produces a false gospel. Example- If a sinner comes to the Lord, the person as far as anyone can tell, he has become a Christian, both groups would accept him and be in agreement that he is saved. But if in a few months or years the person then forsakes church attendance, perhaps denounces Christianity, goes to drugs, liquor, adultery and worse; both groups would probably conclude the person isn't saved. Both sides would now still be in agreement that the person isn't saved. The disagreement, - the first group would now say , “He proved by his actions, that he was not truly saved in the first place”; the Probationists would say " I know he was saved, but he lost his salvation.” Those believing in Eternal Security might quote 1st John 2:19 to justify their position. "They went out from us because they were not of us", or Jesus words about some who would in that day claim they had even done many wonderful works in his name and He yet He says to them "I NEVER KNEW YOU”, not ‘I did know you ,but now that you messed up I don't.’ These verses are convincing! The Probationists would say, " O I know that he was saved". But can you know for sure? The word says man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. In the final analysis no person can be 100% positive that someone else is saved.

There are errors on the extremes of both groups; what are they?

Errors from the Eternal Security camp;- many I believe will accept as saved those who really aren't. Some people have a non-saving belief (John 2:23-24), or have not repented of their sins ( Luke 13:3)], or have not accepted Jesus as God (John 8:24),or trust in their water baptism (Galatians 1:8),or their own righteousness ( Galatians 2:21 ), so really are not saved at all. The Eternal Security people may quickly jump to their "Once saved -always saved doctrine as proof,- yet these folks never were saved. The Bible DOES say " Examine yourselves whether you are in the faith", not all that claim to be saved are saved.

What can be the problem with the Probationists position? They say, “You can't just believe, you've GOT to live it". When they say that, they have moved away from the true gospel ,which says Jesus did the total work for man salvation. It is NOT what Jesus did PLUS "living it", or any added thing! Others would add being water baptized, keeping the Sabbath Day holy, faithful church attendance, attending Mass or any number of things . To add any of the above or any other thing to Jesus shed blood, His death burial, and resurrection, and the sinner coming to God in repentance and receiving Christ by FAITH ALONE is to change the gospel to another gospel that will not save. (See Galatians 1:8)

No one has a card in his wallet, signed by Jesus stating he or she is saved. The ONLY proof any one of us has, is by the promises in God's word, and then understanding them correctly, and being honest with ourselves that according to what the word says, WE ARE AND WILL BE SAVED. There are some verses that seem to back the Eternal Security position. For instance, John 10 :28 Jesus said, " I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish" and the John’s words in 1 John 5:13, "These things have I written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life." And there are other verses that seem to back up the Probationists position, such as, " You have fallen from grace" and " You are saved if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain", and "Christ has become of no effect unto you.....". All verses being inspired by the same God actually do agree if we will understand them properly. Some only want to understand them by their own interpretation, but 2 Peter 1:20 says "....no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". I believe the answer is this. Because we all read the same Bible, the Bible addresses all of us, it doesn't know if its a Christian or a non-Christian reading its verses. So when we are examining ourselves ,"whether we are in the faith" if we were to discover that we have been trusting in a false gospel, then the Bible asks us to consider ourselves as fallen from grace. Lets look at some categories of verses and what might be plausible answers to help our understanding in what it takes to have, or maintain salvation, and what if any errors the Eternal Security or Probationists may be making.

· Verses that connect a changed life and obedience and no gross sin as accompanying true salvation. [ 2 Cor 5:17, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:5, Rev 21:8, John 5:29, Gal 5-24, 2 Thes 2:12, Heb 5:9, Heb 9:28, 2 Pet 2;21 1 John 2:6, 2:4, 2:9, 1 John 3:7-10, 3:24, 1 John 4:8 ∓mp;mp; 13, 1 John 4:7, Luke 6:46 ] It is true a real change does accompany true salvation. The errors being that the some in the Eternal Security camp have missed this and therefore call some saved who really aren't. The error of the Probationists is in making the change a requirement of salvation rather than a result of salvation. Thus changes the gospel to a false gospel of salvation by works.

· Verses that say that repentance of sins is necessary for salvation. This is true! The error of some in the Eternal security camp is that they apparently omit this doctrine even though it is clearly taught. They substitute their human reasoning and may incorrectly label repentance as a "work" and therefore think they have grounds to eliminate it from the gospel. The possible error of the Probationists could be they think that anyone who commits any sin can be labeled as having not repented, not realizing that true Christians do sin and this breaks fellowship with God, not relationship to Him.( 1 John 1:9 instruct God's children how to restore that fellowship through confession of sin)[ Luke 13:3∓mp;mp;5, Mt. 3:2, 4:17, Mark 1:15, 6:12, 16:30, Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 26:20, 20:21, Mt. 3:8, Mark 1:4, 2:17, Luke 3:3, 3:8, 5:32, 24:47, Rom. 2:4, 2 Cor 7:10, 2 Tim 2:25, 2 Peter 3:9 ]

· Verses that connect Salvation with being born again - accepting Jesus deity, believing in (receiving) Him. Both groups accept these without error. [ John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 1 John 5:11-13 Rom 10:4, 9∓mp;mp;10]

· Verses that connect salvation (justification), with it being a free gift, by God's grace, through faith alone.The Eternal Security folks are OK here unless in doing so they go so far as omitting repentance. The Probationists could error by here trying to add human effort in addition which would be error. [ Eph2:8-9, Rom. 11:6, 8:1, 6:23, 3:27-28,Gal1:8-9, 2:16, 2:21, 3:18, 3:21-22, 4:19, 5:2-4, Rom 4:4-5 ]

· Verses that connect true salvation with continuing in the faith and holding on to the gospel as a sign of, or necessary to, claiming salvation. Continuing in the faith is a positive sign that really takes time to see if continuance prevails. However one can have other positive signs without giving yourself years before you claim to be saved. It certainly would be a sign of great concern if one didn't continue in his faith as 1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be manifest that they were not all of us." Errors on the Eternal Security side could be in maintaining their position so strongly that they accept as a saved person who hasn't continued in the faith; they may incorrectly try to label him as a backslider, instead of a person who was never saved in the first place. They thus may let him slip off to judgment instead of witnessing to him and giving him the gospel. [ 1 Cor 15:1-2, Col1:22-23, 1 John 2:19, 2:24, 3:25-26 ]




Galatians 1:8 teaches that you cannot change (add to or subtract from) the true gospel and still have a gospel that will save. Changes to the gospel that some make is by adding to the gospel water baptism, keeping the Sabbath day holy, attendance at Mass, circumcision, keeping the law of Moses, or the keeping of commandments. Keeping the Lords commandments must be the result of salvation, NOT part of salvation's requirements.

The following is some evidence that water baptism is not a part of the true gospel.

Many verses that promise salvation that do not mention water baptism. 1Cor1:21, John 5:24, John 3:16, John 3:36, Romans 10:9-10

Words of Paul that Christ did not send him to baptize folks ( 1 Cor 1:21 ) yet he was to preach the gospel, and the gospel is credited with bringing salvation ( Rom 1:16, Claimed the Corinthians were his children (1 Cor 4:14 , 9:1, 2 Cor 11:2), but he baptized few of them ( 1 Cor 1:14), so they were saved without water baptism!

Evidence Paul was saved on the Damascus Road before his water baptism, he called Jesus Lord, was addressed as a brother (probably in a Christian sense) by Ananias, was able to see physically, and was filled with the Holy Spirit (Hard to call a man lost when he is filled with the Holy Spirit)

Due to the fact that Paul stressed the fact that Moses was justified before circumcision ( Rom 4:10-11 ). It follows that one is justified by Christ alone before water baptism. That is if God is going to be consistent with Himself in His position that He is not accepting anything man can do as part of his justification. He has made salvation by faith alone so man has NO part in saving himself; it is by grace alone , Rom 3:27, Rom 10:4. God wants all the glory for granting salvation with unmerited favor. He evaluates man's righteousness as filthy rags when it comes to justification. ( Isaiah 64:6).




Regarding Mass, it is not only NOT a part of the gospel , it contradicts the gospel of the finished work of Christ. [ Hebrews 9:24-28, 10:10,14,18 ] Roman and Orthodox Catholics teach water baptism and Mass IS part of their gospel.

Regarding Sabbath Day keeping; it is not part of the gospel, see Romans 14:5 Seventh-day Adventists identify those who are saved. as those who keep the Sabbath.

2007-11-15 05:30:16 · 15 answers · asked by Jacob Dahlen 3 in Religion & Spirituality

"Thou art the god who art greater than he who made thee, thou art the sovereign of those who were created with thee, thy throne is set, and the fear of thee is great; let thine Eye go against those who have uttered blasphemies against thee."

Do you know who's eye is on the back of your dollar bill, sitting atop that pyramid?

2007-11-15 05:30:07 · 22 answers · asked by Anonymous in Religion & Spirituality

What would you do?

2007-11-15 05:29:53 · 14 answers · asked by realchurchhistorian 4 in Religion & Spirituality

I think many people use this scritpture for different things....

your life in heaven, or our hope for an earthly paradise, and probably more things. but either way.. this scripture is hard to ignore.. who else is excited? i cant wait for the day when this is all true.

he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.'"—Revelation 21:3, 4.

imagine a day where death would be no more? no pain. no crying no tears... its amazing.

cant we all agree on something/??? haha

2007-11-15 05:29:26 · 14 answers · asked by Kyrstin 4 in Religion & Spirituality

earth is only 6,000 years old and the Bible is Gods word and can not be wrong? Is that the work of the Devil once again? Or is it all part of God's plan? Or is it that the Bible is just a terrible story? If people are to believe in the Bible, then they should believe in all of it, which states that the Earth is only 6,000 years old (going back through the geneology).

2007-11-15 05:28:57 · 50 answers · asked by freezedried001500 2 in Religion & Spirituality

Then How did tHE "The New World" Translation END UP Becoming (BY FAR) the "Most" Accurate Translation ???

2007-11-15 05:28:53 · 6 answers · asked by . 7 in Religion & Spirituality

2007-11-15 05:28:33 · 8 answers · asked by Soda 4 in Religion & Spirituality

The story I was told by some missionaries (who came to my house before 9am on a Saturday, thank you VERY much) was that Joseph Smith found some tablets or plates that had an ancient language written on them. He translated them (the didn't tell me how) and that became the book of Mormon. What did Joseph do with them afterwards? Are they in a museum somewhere, perhaps in Utah? I'd think they would be pretty important, so what happened to them after he transcribed them?

(People who don't like mormons, I don't care. Enough jokes. And no, you're not the first one to edit out the second "m" in their name, stop thinking you're clever.)

2007-11-15 05:27:33 · 18 answers · asked by Skalite 6 in Religion & Spirituality

2007-11-15 05:27:12 · 19 answers · asked by plastik punk -Bottom Contributor 6 in Religion & Spirituality

im not a very religious person, though i go to church when i can and i pray often (i just dont read alot of the bible). i've only read the complete first two books of the bible, and then pieces here and there. well when i read the first part of the bible i was really discouraged. i dont understand why God blessed men who cheated on their wives (or had several wives). why did God bless Abraham when he drank and he lied to the two kings? God was even going to curse the kings who didnt know any better...why would he do that? i just dont get it. i dont understand why it was ok for the earlier men to cheat, drink, lie, and so on and yet, it's a sin today? why would it ever be okay to do that?? please help me...i've been stuggling with this question for a long time.

2007-11-15 05:25:44 · 9 answers · asked by Destiny G 4 in Religion & Spirituality

not to "worship the flag" as in, dont stand up with others to do the pledge of allegiance in school with the other kids?

I have a friend whose child has a classmate that told her she didnt have to stand because she doesnt worship the flag. Was just curious who teaches that.

2007-11-15 05:25:01 · 8 answers · asked by ChaosNJoy 3 in Religion & Spirituality

2007-11-15 05:24:14 · 5 answers · asked by fretnoise900 2 in Religion & Spirituality

hate it? Why or why not?

2007-11-15 05:23:34 · 13 answers · asked by rachel m 4 in Christmas

want stuff for beef or pork mostly but also chicken and anything else.

2007-11-15 05:22:05 · 6 answers · asked by olsonceo 2 in Etiquette

2007-11-15 05:22:04 · 33 answers · asked by Anonymous in Religion & Spirituality

I don't get how faith is anything more than hope.

2007-11-15 05:22:01 · 41 answers · asked by Linz VT•AM 4 in Religion & Spirituality

do non believers celebrate CHRISTMAS? if so, why? just to get gifts? keep in mind that it is CHRISTmas... key word CHRIST..

2007-11-15 05:21:35 · 17 answers · asked by Anonymous in Religion & Spirituality

I see a lot of atheists on here claiming that we all used to be atheists, and that atheism is the default position. I have a hard time accepting that belief, because I don't think it's true.

If we were to ascribe a belief system to children, I would think animism would be the best one. Animism is simply the belief that all things have souls.

Most children seem to attribute a "will" to inanimate objects, and I think it's therefore reasonable to classify them as animists, if we're going to classify them as having a belief system.

2007-11-15 05:21:17 · 10 answers · asked by Anonymous in Religion & Spirituality

are the Atheist Ninjas going to do anything about it?

2007-11-15 05:20:29 · 12 answers · asked by Menon R 4 in Religion & Spirituality

Could you post a link?

Thanks

2007-11-15 05:20:25 · 10 answers · asked by Prof Fruitcake 6 in Religion & Spirituality

According to the theology, He wrote his own book, without humans writing it for him, millenia before any of the western gods were even heard of?

How dare you blaspheme against his holy name by saying that some other god created all that he created? Are you so blinded by your arrogance that you can't look for truth, but hold on to a lie and call it truth? Have you not read the history of creation, as it was given millenia before the name YHWH or Jesus were even uttered?

Are you even aware that there were other texts much older than your own that give a completely different account of creation, and that yours may a trick of Set to lure you away from worshipping the one true god?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg13.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg14.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg15.htm

Can you read through these sacred scriptures and not understand why atheists don't believe in your particular sacred scriptures?

2007-11-15 05:19:58 · 6 answers · asked by Anonymous in Religion & Spirituality

I sometimes believe in it because there's cool evidence, but you can never trust all the evidence you see. I was just saying why do so many of all the different religions disagree with it? I saw a girl ask a question about it and everyone was saying it was stupid. So why do you all not accept?

2007-11-15 05:19:43 · 13 answers · asked by Anonymous in Religion & Spirituality

i agreed with an atheist (and often do except for the existence of God) against Catholic crusader. For i think the first time i got more thunbs up than down.

not that i care....im here for truth.

But what did i miss here????????

lol

2007-11-15 05:19:41 · 7 answers · asked by jesussaves 7 in Religion & Spirituality

or the equivalent of confirmation?

2007-11-15 05:19:04 · 9 answers · asked by Jana Bear 1 in Religion & Spirituality

My boss is one of these guys who really gets a kick out of being "the boss". He is more worried about figuring out what the rest of us are doing than he is his own job. You can't even see his desk because there is so much paper on it. He goes to meetings and promises people that he will take care of something, and then does not follow up on it. Because people aren't getting what they need from him, they come to me for help. More times than not, I help them out so we as company don't look bad, but it's gotten to the point where I'm doing half his job for him! He's supposed to be my boss, but I constantly have to remind him what needs to be done around here. It feels as though he isn't worried about his own tasks because he knows that I will remind him, or do it for him. It just doesn't seem fair to me. He makes more money than I do, but I do twice the work! Do I suck it up and be a team player, or do I diplomatically confront him (or his boss?) about it?

2007-11-15 05:19:04 · 8 answers · asked by Allie M 1 in Etiquette

ever wondered about, but never found time to do really in-depth research?

2007-11-15 05:18:23 · 13 answers · asked by Anonymous in Senior Citizens

...the man who has hope during a crisis, or the man, who just
doesn't care at all...

2007-11-15 05:18:17 · 10 answers · asked by Anonymous in Religion & Spirituality

Why are some people totally worthless? I know that I'm completely without worth or value. But, I don't know why. I always try to help others. I have always been hard working, kept a good job, and put everyone else before myself. So, why is it that I am worthless? What makes a person have value?

2007-11-15 05:18:12 · 6 answers · asked by cyanne2ak 7 in Other - Society & Culture

im a lost soul

2007-11-15 05:17:29 · 16 answers · asked by drew 1 in Religion & Spirituality