"Ancient vegetarian cultures"--are there any examples?

Question

At least three or four times, people have made statements on this forum that are somewhat puzzling to me. It usually has to do with people arguing that you can rightly call yourself vegetarian and eat fish, poultry, or whatever. The statements went something like this: "Ancient vegetarian cultures have always accepted pesco-vegetarians."

But none of these people ever gave an example of one of these so-called "vegetarian cultures."

What are they talking about? Can any of those people give an example or were they just making it up?

(By the way, my wife is from India. That's the closest thing to a "vegetarian culture" that I can think of and I know for a fact they have very clear ideas about what is or is not vegetarian. A lot of Indians aren't vegetarian, though; I'm not talking about that.)

I tried to be as clear as possible, but it would probably have to be someone who is a "regular" in the V&V forum to know what I mean exactly.

If you don't know me, I have been vegetarian for 23 years (plant food, some dairy products, no food that is made out of the body of an animal, no eggs). My wife is Indian-Hindu and she follows the same diet.

Some other people post questions like "can you call yourself vegetarian and eat fish?" My answer is no. Some other people answer "vegetarian cultures the world over accept pollo-pesco-vegetarans (meaning people who eat fish and poultry and call themselves vegetarian)." And then they don't give any examples of these "vegetarian cultures"--sorry, but I don't know how I can say it more clearly without linking to the actual people who made the statements but I would rather not single them out like that.

exfst (or however you spell your name): Yeah, it did strike me that maybe they were referring to Buddhists. I used to study religion as a hobby; and Buddha did write about not eating meat, and apparently required certain behavior of Buddhist monks and nuns which included not killing or eating animals. But I don't think there was any such requirement for laypeople; or at least not in any source that I remember reading. Maybe it depends on the sect someone follows and their own personal preference.

Wire and String: I don't have any problem with anyone eats. It just annoys me when they eat animals and call themselves "vegetarian." "Pesco-vegetarian" to me is like "virgin-who-has-sex-sometimes." Call yourself pescetarian and I don't have any problem with it.
Lacto-vegetarianism is the typical Hindu form of vegetarianism. It would be something of a hassle for me to totally give up milk being married to an Indian Vaisnava Hindu woman who makes her own yogurt. Butter, yogurt and milk are even used in religious rituals in her particular branch of Hinduism.

In the last message, the first sentence was supposed to say "I don't have any problem with what anyone else chooses to eat."

Thanks, Krister, Michael H and lo mcg. You guys know exactly what I mean.

Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism (all religions of Indian origin) had the concept of vegetarianism as a part of Ahimsa or non-violence, but Ahimsa doesn't refer to diet alone. I asked my wife for an Indian word for "vegetarian" but she couldn't think of one. It's generally a diet one follows if the person wants to practice Ahimsa as a way of life--but apparently there was no specific word for "vegetarian" until it was invented by Westerners.

Brahmins, or the priestly caste, were generally the people who practiced Ahimsa/vegetarianism. However, non-Brahmans could make a vow to give up meat eating. My wife's religious group strongly recommends vegetarianism but a lot of people belong to the group and eat meat. At some point, an individual may make a vow to stop eating meat and this is considered a very sacred thing.

Wire and String: I think I do understand where you're coming from, very mature answer about "putting emotions aside." But I guess that's just it, I do see vegetarianism as more of a lifestyle than just a diet. You're talking to a guy who once saved the life of a mouse that was caught on one of those glue traps. Life is sacred to me, and it does make me emotional.

I didn't mean to trivialize the signficance of Ahimsa or vegetarianism to Hinduism. But certain classes of people were not expected to refrain from meat--the Tshatriyas or warrior caste was generally expected to eat meat--but that was because warriors aren't expected to be "non-violent." A non-meat eating Brahmin would not criticize a warrior for being a warrior, but a warrior did not claim to be Brahmin either. I guess that sums it up for me. It's all about someone claiming to be something they aren't; and they are claiming to be part of something they don't even understand. That's why I hate it when animal eaters call themselves "vegetarians."

Answer 1

I know who you speak of. Their ignorance seems so great that it cannot genuine. I think that they are actually veg people that are trying to make omnis look bad or just create tension between the two sides.

"Vegetarian" is a word from the English language. Any supposed ancient cultures did not describe their beliefs or way of living using English, therefore there is no logic in calling them vegetarian or pollo/pesco when according to the ENGLISH language a vegetarian is someone that doesn't eat animals or parts/substances from their bodies. Even if they did speak English, the word is a neologism.

It doesn't matter what other cultures that spoke other languages accepted. They may have had their own word to describe piscivores or bird-eaters but they obviously had no relation to the English word, "vegetarian".

Answer 2

this is from Julie Sahni, the author of Classic Indian Vegetarian and Grain Cooking,
ISBN 0688049958:

Reflecting on my sister's wedding so many years later, I am also reminded of the innumerable animals, birds, sea creatures, and all of nature's elements that the Hindus worship as if they were gods.

Many years later I visited the temple for rats (Chooha Devi Mandir) in Rajasthan, and the temple for the monkeys in Hardwar. I observed the festival that celebrates the snake god Cobra (Naag Panchami) by offering him milk and honey in a thali at night, and the festival of the harvest, at which five-course meals are offered to the birds and eleven-course meals to the cattle. These rituals took place before the participants could be served anything to eat.

The HIndu philosophy of peaceful coexistence with nature, the principle of nonviolence, suddenly seemed to fall into place. I realized that this was a culture that respects every living creature equally. What our forefathers established was a form of preservation of God's creatures. Vegetarianism thus came naturally and effortlessly to someone living in India (p 19).


There is an excellent book on this subject:

Vegetarianism: A History
by Colin Spencer

Description
Food writer Colin Spencer discusses those who came to vegetarianism by choice, not necessity, from the religions that preach it such as Hinduism and Seventh Day Adventism to the notable individuals who have practiced it, including Leonardo da Vinci and Gandhi. In this accessible history of vegetarianism, Spencer also explores the psychology of abstention and the ideas that have informed a meat-free diet throughout the ages.

Paperback: 400 pages
Publisher: Four Walls Eight Windows (January 30, 2004)
ISBN-10: 1568582919
ISBN-13: 978-1568582917



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Answer 3

I've seen this too, and while it might be more interesting if they included a couple of examples, i dont really feel like anything that ancient cultures did either validates or invalidates my diet. If you had good examples of ancient cultures would it change your opinion in regard to pesco-vegetarians in today's world? I would guess not. in the way you framed this you seem to be asking this as a rebuttle against pesco-vegetarians, and not because you would like to know more about ancient cultures and their ties to vegetarianism or pesco-vegetarianism. You have described yourself as a lacto-vegetarian, a practice which most certainly has a historic tie to an ancient culture (brahmanism) as you have alluded to. Is brahmanism the reason that you haven't given up milk? do you feel that this ancient culture justifies the fact that you are not a vegan?

I am sorry if i came off confrontational in this post, i was in a bad mood yesterday and i think i read more confrontation in your post than was there. I think your problem stems from the feeling that vegetarianism is a lifestyle and not a diet. animal rights activism is a lifestyle. vegetarianism is a diet. put your emotions aside and let people describe their diet the way that is easiest. the meat eating public will be confused regardless.

Answer 4

Well....Jainism and Buddhism....both religion were complete vegetarians..both religion were believe that killing someone just for food is a big sin cause God already provide enough things to eat...in fact Jainism was much strict....according to them, some vegetables are not good to eat cause there were alive germs in that...like potato....still a lot of Jain people don't eat potato and some other vegetables....

I am also a vegetarian and i eat only vegetables, grains, fruits, and milk. eggs, meat are all non vegetarian. food.

One more thing...a particular word for vegetarian in India is..."SHAKAHARI" .....you used a word "ahimsa" i think it is "ahinsa" ...it mean non violence...basically ahinsa does not clarify that a person is vegetarian or not....suppose...you are a non vegi....and at the same time...you don't like to hunt or beat someone or any type of violence...here you are a non vegi but also an "ahinsak" (the person who do never involve in any violent activity)....but when i say, "I am a shakahari"....it means i am a vegetarian and I do never eat meat, eggs, fishes etc.

If you don't mind...I would like to suggest you to learn about Jainism....you will surely get so much help for your research
because it is the most strict religion when it come to eating habits or "Ahinsa".

Answer 5

As far as I know, Buddhism preaches austerity not vegetarianism... meat was expensive and ostentatious so it was eliminated. Fish as cheap so it wasn't.. Japan has a long history of being Buddhists yet their cuisine is known for serving mainly raw fish and seafood...could it be that pure vegetarian cultures did exist but did not survive and left behind no records to show fo their existence?

Answer 6

I think all due to their thinking and perception about vegan. But as a Buddhist they become vegan because they want to practice benevolent by not killing animal for food. Most of nutrient from meat including fish could be found in vegy.
My wife and I have been full time vegan for more than 10 years and currently we have 3 children. We found that we are less prone to sickness and we look younger compare to meat eating people of our age.

Answer 7

Horus is a God (a divinity of masculine gender) from the Ancient Egyptian pantheon - not a Goddess (a divinity of feminine gender). The story of Eve from the Old Testament has no apparent connection to the myths about Horus. There are some similarities between the story of Jesus and the myths of Horus but as usual you have not only grasped the wrong end of the stick you've grabbed the wrong stick entirely...

Answer 8

It would be easier to respond if you could identify which statements you are talking about. But there are plenty of people who say things that aren't true about all sorts of things, so it is not really a surprise to learn that some people might have mistaken ideas about ancient cultures or what it means to be a vegetarian.

Answer 9

This is hard to answer but we know that Mayan people where big on maize or corn products, but I'm sure they ate meat too, China and many other Asian countries are big on Rice products, but the do supplement them with fish or meat too. Here in the US we eat grains, veggies and the like, but supplement them with meat also. I really don't think supplementing your diet with meat is a big thing. It's not like we eat a four course meal consisting of only meat. But to get back on point, every culture I can think of that was big on a grain, always supplemented their diets with meat when obtainable. Key word when obtainable.

Answer 10

You are right on all your observations.

vegetarians are just that - vegetarians. There is no need to qualify it with hyphonated prefixes.

Eat fish, poultry or beef on a tuesday and you are not a vegetarian.

"Wire and String". I don't think anyone has said you don't exist, vegetarians jsut say you are not vegetarian. What is wrong with that ? If you are tired of people saying you don't exist perhaps you can think for a second about our point of view. The "rest of the world" use the pollo and fish- people as causes to attack: "veggies are hypocrites because they eat fish/chicken etc "

Vegetarians are "tired" of being criticsed for eating fish/chicken or being offered them in resturants.

Lets see what the worlds oldest vegetarian society has to say about it, you know, the one that ACTUALLY defined the word in 1847:
http://www.vegsoc.org/fish

At least its flattering to know that so many people want to be associated with us.