For Mormons: Are you saved by your works?

Question

Okay, I previously asked if you would be comfortable with the statement "Are you saved by God's Graciousness Alone?" Some answered "yes" but usually with the qualification that the conversion has to be real as demonstrated by "works."

Others answered "no" but with qualifications also that seemed to suggest essentially the same thing.

In both cases, there was still some discomfort with the way I worded the question. Pinkadot in particular seemed very concerned that it might suggest that person could be saved without actually repenting, similar to resurrection.

So now let me ask you a set of far more pointed questions.
Mormons are often accused by other Christians of believing that you merrit salvation through your works. So let me test that stereotype by asking Mormons to answer the following questions. Please *answer the question* and *don't give pat answers* to avoid answering the questions. Feel free to follow up with explanations.

I will put the questions in the detail

Do you believe that good works can merit salvation?

Do you believe that it’s possible for someone to do so many good works that God owes them salvation?

Do you believe that good works can partially merit salvation – but there isn’t enough merit in your own works so Jesus’ atonement makes up the rest? (i.e. it’s partially the merit of your works and partially the merit of Jesus’ atonement that saves you.)

Again, please think about these questions and answer them. Please don’t explain what Mormons believe from another point of view. I already understand Mormon beliefs quite well. I am not looking for an explanation of Mormon beliefs. I’m looking for how you react to the wording of each question and I’m attempting to find the divide between your beliefs and other Christians on this subject.

Quoting to me something like “Saved by Grace after all you can do” doesn’t answer my questions, so please try to avoid this. That statement can be taken in a number of different ways. (For example, it could realistically be understood to mean that even after you give it your all, at the end of the day it’s Christ that saves you.)

And to be honest, it doesn’t state clearly if you understand your works to merit salvation in some way. If it means you have to truly accept Christ and repent (the most common interpretation, I believe) that says nothing one way or the other about meriting salvation.

So I ask very respectfully to answer the questions above and not go off on a tangent about what you believe by putting it into other words.

If interested, here is the link to the previous question and answers (which at the moment is still opened)

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AiVeJDmt.0yaUhh5QRBQgzrsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071026183526AAubUZD

To Non-Mormons answering this question:

You all should be ashamed of yourself for using a sincere question like this as a platform for mocking another religious belief. This is not Christ-like behavior. It is sinful. Please repent and do as your Lord and Master would want and cease from this sin.

Let the Mormons answer for themselves whether than attempting to put words into their mouth. How would you feel if they answered for you? Do unto others as you've have them do unto you.

Doc, you don't allow emails, so I couldn't respond to you.

First of all, excellent answer. Exactly what I was looking for.

I just wanted to say that when I said I understood Mormon doctrine already, I wasn't trying to imply that I had "all the answers" (as you clearly read it) I was merely trying to avoid having people mistake a question about semantics -- about the words themselves -- with a doctrinal question.

Unfortunately many responders still made that mistake. Look over the answers, Doc, about half (originally far more) didn't even attempt to answer the question I actually asked because they thought I was asking a doctrinal question about whether or not Mormons believe a person can have salvation (or exalation) without works. But of course I already knew the answer to THAT question.

The following responders didn't even bother to answer my question because they thought I was asking a doctrinal question:
Brother G The Mormon
newwellness
mormon_4_jesus
pinkadot (who followed up with my offline and DID answer the question)

Of those that did answer my question, about half didn't even bother to answer all three or use the word "merit" at all.

In my offline conversation with pinkadot, after trying several ways to reexplain my question I finally said "Pinkadot, my real question is 'what do you think of the word *merit*'"?

That finally allowed him/her to understand that I wasn't asking a doctrinal question. Others I emailed and tried to work with could not understand my question no matter how I tried to explain it.

I can see that asking questions about language is very difficult. We think in language, so when you ask about language, you are asking people to think about thinking. It's very difficult and not everyone can comprehend it.

On the other hand, the Mormons shouldn't feel that bad. After all, I asked the reverse question of other Christians but only two people out of them all were able to understand the question and answer it.

Check out: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AtZn68bD57lEwp9SDhqkSArsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071027173048AAfNPYg

I've learned something interesting here. People have a really hard time thinking outside of the phrases and slogans that they have already learned.

Heck, not a single person was able to understand this question:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AjVveh1XTfsKHjLxHO88vpLsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071026184522AApOKXh

The way it was worded it went too far against the slogans of Protestantism.

However, rewording it as brought the exact opposite answer:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AiVeJDmt.0yaUhh5QRBQgzrsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071027062025AAjzA9e

Again, I say language is a difficult thing to ask questions about.

Answer 1

First, before I attempt to answer your questions, I’d like to say a few things about your questions. I understand how frustrating it can be to work hard to ask a question only to have answers that don’t seem to address your question. You sometimes get a sort of canned response that makes you scream, “But how about answering the question I actually asked? Your response does me no good!”

That having been said, I have a few frustrations of my own. I have read your questions many times, and I have to agree with rac, “The more I read of your explanation, the more uncertain I am of what to answer you.”

You say that “I already understand Mormon beliefs quite well. I am not looking for an explanation of Mormon beliefs.” If you truly understand the Mormon scriptures and what Mormon leaders are saying now about faith and works, then you understand more than 99% of the Mormon population. I’ve been an active member of the Church for 60 years, I’ve been blessed with many great teachers in the Church, I’ve studied the doctrines on my own, and each day I get a better insight into the teachings of the Church. The way I would answer your questions today is different from the way I would have answered them only a couple of weeks ago. Who among us understands Mormon beliefs "quite well"? In addition, we don’t all agree, you know.

Which brings up the question, if you understand Mormon beliefs so well, why are you asking these questions? You can answer them yourself. Do you want to see the spread in what Mormons believe-how much we see things differently? Are you looking for particularly apt expressions of Mormon beliefs? There is no way to answer these questions without explaining what Mormons believe, which is what you say you do NOT want, so what exactly is the point of asking your questions? Why do you want our reaction to the wording of your questions? Why do you want the divide between Mormon belief and other Christian belief? Is the purpose of these questions to show non-Mormons that they don’t have a clue about what Mormons really believe? Why not just answer your own questions and then ask if we agree?

Okay, I’ll try to keep the whining to a minimum as I attempt to answer your questions. However, there is no way I can explain my reaction to your wording and mark the divide between my beliefs and other Christian beliefs without explaining Mormon belief.

Question 1. “Do you believe that good works can merit salvation?”

I only have three problems with this question. What do you mean by the three terms (a) “good works,” (b) “merit,” and (c) “salvation”? Other than that my reaction to your question is positive.

If we were serious about answering this question we would examine the 27 scriptures (Bible and other LDS scriptures) that use the term “good works” and see how the term was used. We would then go on to the two instances of the term “merit” in the scriptures, and the thousand or so times the term “salvation” was used. After all, we don’t want to use the corrupt definitions of men in explaining scriptural principles. For completeness we should also look for words or terms that have a similar meaning, and include other forms of the words used in your question.

It would be interesting, but I don’t think I have time for all that. Perhaps your question can be answered by looking at forms of the word “merit.” The scriptures tell us that we cannot dwell in the presence of God, “save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah.” (2 Ne. 2:8). Evidently it cannot be through our OWN merits. We don’t get saved without “relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.” (2 Ne. 31:19). Furthermore “And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins…” (Alma 22:14). That should make it pretty clear that we don’t merit anything working by ourselves, since we are in a fallen state. We must rely fully on the merits of Jesus, and not our own merits, in the process of forsaking our sins and gaining forgiveness (Alma 24:10, Hel 14:13, Moro 6:4). And without forgiveness of our sins there is no salvation.

So, since the scriptures tell us that there is nothing we can do to merit anything on our own, it would follow that we cannot merit salvation with our own good works.

How does that differ from other Christian beliefs? Well, some Christian churches teach that God arbitrarily chooses who to save and who not to save, and nothing that the individual does makes any difference in the decision Jesus makes, since this might indicate that one individual merited salvation while the other did not. We do not believe this. To use an imperfect analogy, we are like drowning men to whom Jesus extends a tree branch to pull us out of the water. It is only through the merits of Jesus that we are pulled from spiritual death, but we should not overlook the fact that we must grasp firmly to the branch extended, and hold on for dear life. We must do our part, and do all that we can do for ourselves, even though we are undeserving of it; and all the work of pulling is on the part of Jesus, and not our own strength. Jesus has promised that he will strengthen us as we pray to the Father, so that we may accomplish our part. So, of what have we to boast? Nothing. It is the love of God in the atonement that saves us. Yet many will not make the effort to hold on to the branch, nor pray for strength and courage, and they will not be saved. It is our own fault if we are not saved.

Another difference is that we believe that through the grace of God we might have the strength to overcome our faults and become perfect. Again, it is not sanctification through our merits, but without our efforts we do not achieve perfection either. God will not force anyone to heaven. God has given us many commandments, and He stands willing and ready to help us live those commandments, but if we ignore God we are not perfected. This may look to some as though we are saying that we merit salvation by obedience to the commandments. Not so. We merely put ourselves in a position were God can righteously extend to us the promises he has made to the faithful.

Question 2. “Do you believe that it’s possible for someone to do so many good works that God owes them salvation?”

Again we must determine what “good works” means, and what it means for God to “owe” someone “salvation.” The key word in this question is “owe,” I believe. There is nothing in the scriptures about God owing us anything. The scriptures only talk about what we owe God. So, obviously, nothing we do makes God owe us anything.

The difficulty I have with this question, and perhaps where Mormon belief is different from other Christian belief, may be seen if I were to rephrase your question a little differently, as some might interpret your question. “Do you believe that it’s possible for someone to do so many good works that he might rightfully claim, through the promises God has made, to receive the gift of salvation?” The answer to that question would be “yes.”

Do you see what I mean? God has made certain promises that if we do certain things we will be saved. It is not that God owes us salvation, except that God is bound by His own covenants; God is not capricious. We can rely on God; we can have faith in Him, because He always fulfils his promises. We can expect salvation, “If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.” (D&C 6:13). Does this mean God “owes” us salvation if we fulfill our part of the covenant? Not in the sense that we have made ourselves worthy, all by ourselves, to receive the priceless gift of salvation. Our “good works” are never in any way commensurate with the value of the gift we are promised. But we can choose to allow God to do good works through us.

Question 3. “Do you believe that good works can partially merit salvation – but there isn’t enough merit in your own works so Jesus’ atonement makes up the rest? (i.e. it’s partially the merit of your works and partially the merit of Jesus’ atonement that saves you.)”

I’ve sometimes heard Mormons talk that way. But the scriptures say to me that there is no merit at all in anything we do on our own, without Jesus. Fallen man cannot merit anything of himself, as we have seen in the Book of Mormon scripture I quoted earlier. Nothing we do without faith is pleasing to God, and faith is a gift that comes from God. Faith comes as we are reconciled to God. Without the atonement of Jesus we cannot be reconciled to God. So our good works which are done without the benefit of the atonement are valueless.

On the other hand it is essential that we show forth good works, such as submitting ourselves to baptism by one having authority from God. The ability to repent and the opportunity to be baptized do not come from the merits of our good works, but through the merits of Jesus. We must repent, which can be considered a good work, but this isn’t our part of the salvation equation, it is something we do in partnership with God. Without God as our partner throughout the entire process of salvation – sanctification from the effects of sin – we have no good works at all. It is Jesus’ atonement that makes possible any “good work,” so it isn’t something that “makes up the rest.” We cannot pull ourselves up by our bootstraps – that defies the laws of the universe. But we can grab hold of the branch Jesus offers us.

Jesus definitely has the power to save us – he doesn’t need our good works to make up for any supposed deficiency in saving us. Yet he requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If we are sincerely humble and do all that we can, he will help us out all along the way. If we do not keep his commandments we have no promise. But even a change of heart comes from God, if we permit God to change our heart (see Alma 5). In the final analysis the only thing (“good work”?) we bring to the table is a willingness to yield our will to the will of the Father, as God continually entices us to do. I don’t see that there is any inherent merit to that yielding – it is do that or perish – but a lifetime of such willingness makes the difference in whether God will save us or not.

I 've tried hard to answer your particular questions. I hope this is what you wanted to hear. I’ve taken the trouble to expand on my beliefs in this question because I thought it would do me some good to organize my thoughts and put them in writing.

Answer 2

I'm LDS and here is what true salvation intails. Salvation is, has been and will always be three fold.

1). Faith- Faith on our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and his Atoning Sacrifice.

2). Works- Works without faith is dead. What are works? Baptism, Laying on of hands by one having authority, plus others that things that we believe in. Does it end there? NO!
Then we must live has the scriptures say loving your neighbor has oneself. Doing the works of Christ. Preaching the Gospel. Finally....

3). Grace- After all we have done, exercising faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice, doing good works. We will still come up short. This is where the Grace of Christ and God comes in. We can not receive salvation without the first two steps. We have to make the effort to be like God and Christ Perfect. But like Romans says, All men have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. God grants us the rest just for trying our hardest.

These three things are what constitutes salvation. No other way and it must be these three and all three.

Answer 3

We believe we are eligible to gain eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom ("saved" to us) after we have done all we can do, endured to the end, then through the grace of the Lord.
Without "good works", no, I do not believe a person can gain salvation. "Good works" - living a Christ-like life, as much as possible.
This life is like a big cup. A full cup = eternal life with God. Everything we do in this life - our thoughts, words and deeds, repentance for sin - will fill the cup. No matter how hard we try or how "good" we are, we can in no way fill it up ourselves...BUT we are expected to try. Then, after we have done all we can, Christ will make up the difference and fill our "cup" the rest of the way.
We do not believe we are "saved" by works alone or by faith alone or by grace alone or really, by anything "alone". There are many components and requirements in earning exaltation - not just one or two things.

Answer 4

Do you believe that good works can merit salvation?
No, one sin which we all have disqualifies us from salvation by the laws of justice.

Do you believe that it’s possible for someone to do so many good works that God owes them salvation?
No. It is not a matter of outweighing the bad with the good.

Do you believe that good works can partially merit salvation – but there isn’t enough merit in your own works so Jesus’ atonement makes up the rest? (i.e. it’s partially the merit of your works and partially the merit of Jesus’ atonement that saves you.)
No. Jesus Christ is the only one who merits or earned or deserved salvation. But through his atonement, he has provided the steps necessary for mercy to satisfy justice. We must take these steps in order to receive salvation. Not through merit, but through mercy. If I said "I'll give you a car if you jump in a pool, swim a lap, dry off, change clothes and pick up the keys" and you do it. Do you merit the car? No. but if you didn't do those things, I wouldn't have given it to you. Random example, I know.

Answer 5

As I said in the other question, our works do not save us, but they are essential to demonstrate our faith, obedience and perseverance to the commandments of the Gospel. We cannot be saved by works alone because there are those that are able to pretend good works for the wrong reasons. Our hearts must be one with Christ so that our works are truly sanctifying. Even then are we unprofitable servants and yet need the atoning grace of Christ to bring us back into the presence of God.

Answer 6

As a LDS man, we are saved by grace of Lord Jesus Christ after all we can do. If we are worthy of the grace of Jesus Christ, we will saved and obtain exaltation.

Saved by Grace alone is a protestant theory and assertion that puts Paul's words over everything else in the bible.

The Catholics and Eastern Orthdox churches before the protestant churches sprang up never taught this.
James 2 has the same authority as Ephesians 2.
The Catholics and Eastern Othrodox churches believe the tradition of the church is more important or authoratative than the bible alone.

So I reject the protestant's claim that grace alone is the way to salvation. Do I believe in grace is needed for salvation, yes. But works is needed too.

Answer 7

Do you believe that good works can merit salvation?

Good works is needed. you can't have faith alone. Faith without works is dead

Do you believe that it’s possible for someone to do so many good works that God owes them salvation?

No. You must also be baptized and take the name of Christ.

Do you believe that good works can partially merit salvation – but there isn’t enough merit in your own works so Jesus’ atonement makes up the rest? (i.e. it’s partially the merit of your works and partially the merit of Jesus’ atonement that saves you.)

Good Works are important. You must have faith. you must also repent of sins. The Atonement allows us to repent of our sins because Jesus took the sins upon him if we repent.

These are good questions there is more than one thing to get us into heaven or be saved or whatever term or phrase you yourself use. if you have any more questions, contact me or go to www.lds.org

Answer 8

First...we are saved by grace. Period.

Second...There is no way we can EARN salvation of any kind. He gave us life. That is a rare and precious gift...and when we do anything to thank Him, ie keeping the commandments, He blesses us and once again we are in his debt. So, there is no way to get ahead of God on this one. See, God likes to bless us. He likes to do good things for us. He likes to give us all that He can, and when we give him the opportunity to do so...ie keeping the commandments...He does so.

Third...the works we do aren't to salvation...they are unto exaltation. We do works of God because we love him and we want to be more like him. Because we have repented and are grateful for the atonement. Because we understand that our sins hurt the one who loves us best...God. And we don't want to hurt any more than necessary. The more we do His works, the more we understand God. The more we understand God, the more we love Him. The more we Love Him, the more we want to be like Him.

Works are to show our true change of heart...Show God, Show ourselves, Show others. It is to show that we have repented and are striving to "sin no more".

Works don't save you...but not doing the works can condemn you. Not doing the works show you to be a rebellious, ungrateful child...and the atonement has no place in your heart.

Answer 9

We are 'saved' only because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. By 'saved' I mean freed and forgiven of our sins.

Is there more than being 'saved' that Heavenly Father expects of us? I am so grateful for the Grace provided for us that I now seek to do His will and obey His commandments. I now avail myself of any opportunity to serve Him and others. I know from the scriptures that He has provided blessings when we do. Anything I do in the way of works is not because it erases my sin. It is because I love Him.

Answer 10

We are SAVED by grace, we are JUDGED on our works, meaning those things that Jesus commands of His disciples.

There is a difference between salvation and exaltation.

Answer 11

They think that Jesus provided salvation for all after they do all they can do in the Mormon Church.

The problem is that they think they can be good as they can to be in a higher level of heaven. But sin separate us from God. And believing in a book that says we need to attain salvation by works & faith is a sin. So? Because it is written that salvation is freely given. It is the gift of God through faith. We have to reach up & receive it. That takes action of faith. That takes confessing Jesus Christ one's Lord & believing He shed His blood on Calvery for remission of our sins & raised up for our justification. Jesus said, "It is finished!". on the cross. That takes realizing we have sinned & need salvation & we have nothing to offer God, but to receive His Gift for us.

Even one sin will keep you out of heaven. Jesus paid for all our sin when we receive the payment for our sin.

When we make less of Jesus atonement for our sins, we are rejecting Gods gift. The sin the Holy Spirit convicts the world of is not believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. And if what Jesus did on the cross isn't sufficient for ones sins, then it isn't Grace at all. It is purchased by doing this n that.

Jesus wants us to come as we are. Needing His Salvation & asking Jesus to come into our hearts. Not by doing this & that to earn it. Salvation is freely given. By Grace we are saved, & not by works lest anyone boast.

To earn salvation is a pride thing.


And, they think that the only ones who have authority are those whose familiar spirit has confirmed the Mormon book & the Holy Bible are both the Word of God, because of the burning in their bosom. Jesus Himself warned about adding other doctrines in His Church in Revelation to the 7 Churches. Jesus hated the false doctrines. The Mormon book is false. It is not of the Holy Spirit, & the Mormons who love the familiar spirits more than the Grace of God are suffering from a great deception. It is sooo sad.

The Lord has given my permission to write everything I wrote as an answer. So? I am not going to repent to God for it. I am writing honestly from my heart. When I am honest about this, God is pleased. My God is God the Father, Word & Holy Spirit of the Holy Bible.

My heart is for the Mormons, but that they turn to Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible & receive the Grace of salvation available for them right now. Not when they do this & that for a false religion.