Catholics: Can the Catholic church rightly claim to not worship Mary, when Popes Pius IX & XII say it does?

Question

Fulgens Corona, His Holiness Pope Pius XII
Encyclical Proclaiming a Marian Year
September 8, 1953

18. ... there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (quoting Pius IX) ...

See http://www.newadvent.org/library/do...

I could withdraw this as evidence of a direct sanction of Marian worship if anyone can show me from the Latin that hyperdulia and not latria is used here. I have not been able to find the Latin version of this for verification.

I know paragraph 15 tries to head off the Protestant objection that Catholic devotion to Mary subverts the worship due to God. I find the argument lame. He is saying, in principle, we could worship anyone or anything as long as we gave ultimate credit to God, who is the source of all good things, for in so doing we do not cheat Him of His due. Technically, this would apply to the golden calf (Ex 32:5). Oops!

Both worship and respect are based on the attribution of worth to some object. When an attribution of worth goes beyond the actual attributes of worthiness, respect has become idolatry. For God, it is impossible to grant Him more worth that he actually possesses. He has all worthiness. His love, His power, His justice, His mercy, His truth, his wisdom, His glory is infinite, above all human imagining, beyond the scope of creaturely thought. The Scriptures teach he will not give this glory, these attributions of worth, to another. Isaiah 42:8. Therefore, if these glories are given to another, only one of two conclusions are possible to the believing mind. That “other” is either God, or is a usurper of the glory due only to God.

In this context, consider some statements from “The Glories of Mary,” by Alphonsus Delaguarie. Yes, I know these are not so-called infallible statements of Popes. They are more significant than that, because they are a compendium of the hearts and minds of the Catholic faithful down through the centuries, supported and uncontradicted by the See of Rome, who is therefore complicit in their sentiments concerning Mary:

“As queen she possesses by right the whole kingdom of her Son.”
“There are just as many creatures serving Mary as there are serving God.”
“All things in heaven and earth are under God’s dominion so that they are at the same time under Mary’s dominion. She has dominion and power over all creation.”
“Jesus is King of justice, Mary is queen of mercy.”
“Every prayer of Mary’s is like an established law for our Lord.”
“Mary throws open the door of God’s mercies to anyone she pleases when she pleases as she pleases.”
“There are no sinners who will be lost no matter how great their crimes when Mary intercedes for them.”
“Nothing resists her power for God the Father looks upon her glory as if it were His own … God the Son taking delight in glorifying her grants her every perfection as if He were paying a debt.”

“As long as sinners remain obstinate, Mary can’t love them. But if they repent and plead with her to lift them out of their state of sin, this good mother will reach out her strong hand to them, break loose their chains and lead them to salvation.”
“All you who hunger for the Kingdom of God honor the Blessed Virgin Mary and you will find life and eternal salvation.”
“Whoever bears the mark of devotion to Mary, God recognizes as His own.”
“All graces are dispensed by Mary. All who are saved are saved only by the means of this divine mother. The salvation of all depends upon Mary and her intercession. Blessed are they who bind themselves with love and confidence to these two anchors of salvation, Jesus and Mary.”

See http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-314.htm

Is it then true that the above attributions are not worship, as defined by Catholics?

Garwy, please, what Protestants do you refer to? No one I know. All Protestants of my acquaintance acknowledge God as the Creator of all things. It is only the worship of created things they have trouble with.

Da Ent Wife, Ex Cathedra is irrelevant here. I only seek to prove Marian worship is a sanctioned practice, not a required practice. Catholics assert they do not worship of Mary, and this Encyclical seems to contradict that assertion. The praxis, not just the dogma, is fair game for inquiry.

ICToA, thanks for pointing out the link problem. Here's the document:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12fc.htm

ICToA, interesting observation. I don't get your meaning, but if it makes you happy ...

Da Ent Wife, so many assumptions, so little time. Do you accuse me of a lie? That would mean I actually saw things your way but said them my way, knowingly deceiving. I don't see them your way, and for me to say other wise would indeed be a lie. I am doing my own research. I am relying on Catholic documents to provide this information. Yes, I have looked at the catechism. I am troubled by its content, as it also leaves the door wide open for significant Marian worship. But as I said, I am inquiring about the practice of worshipping Mary, which is routinely denied, exactly as you are doing, on the basis of dogma. But practice is important to me, because I have family members that have expressed a devotion to Mary that positively excludes Jesus. I am troubled by that, and your accusation of lying really makes no sense to me in that context. I care about my relatives. If you saw the sorrow on my face .. but if it makes you feel better, go ahead - can't stop you anyway ...

smegmakid8677, thanks for your input. I am aware of the attempt to separate the degrees of worship via the semantic classification device you describe. My question, however, revolves around the apparent failure of Pius XII to use that defense in this encyclical. I don't know if that means there is a translation problem, or if he just used a broader word for worship then defended it using the principle of redirection. Although it may be clear to you that he has safeguarded the distinction, without the original Latin to verify the English translation, it is not clear to me.

Meg, I congratulate you on being the first to actually respond to my question. I appreciate it greatly. I still would like to see the Latin, however, because I am curious about the nature of Pius XII's defense in paragraph 15, in that he does not appear to rely on semantic distinction, but on the redirection of generic honor from the created to the Creator. This text gets wide play in Protestant circles, but no one seems to have the Latin original. That leaves us with the word choice made for the English translation. Your argument from Italian and Portuguese has some persuasive value, but I will not be fully satisfied on this point without seeing the Latin. Again, I want to thank you for actually listening to me. Means a lot.

Listen, I appreciate everyone educating and re-educating and re-re-educating me on the latria/hyperdulia word game, but that's all it is, a semantic trick that doesn't change the fact that worship is not some precise mental and emotional state that can be generated in different flavors on call. We are not “worship” machines; we are worshipful beings. Worship is a wholesale devotion to the thing worshipped. Calling it one word or another doesn’t stabilize the fluidity of the spiritual dynamics. Have y'all seen Marian “devotion” that sidelines Jesus? I have. In my own family. So I really don’t care too much about “official dogma.” I care about the fact that it has turned members of my family into virtual goddess worshippers. Bending the knee to a dead stature has no possible justification. Oh, and the Pope does approve of at least that. There are photos. See http://www.rmusictv.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=287&PID=2302

As for Mary’s involvement in the liturgy, try this:

“Our Blessed Lord did not begin His work of redemption without the consent of Mary, solemnly asked and freely given. Likewise He did not complete it on Calvary without her presence and her consent. "From this union of sufferings and of will between Mary and Christ, she merited to become most worthily the restorer of the lost world and the dispenser of all the graces Jesus purchased by His death and by His Blood." She stood by the cross of Jesus on Calvary, representing all mankind there, and at each new Mass the offering of the Saviour is accomplished subject to the same conditions. Mary stands at the altar no less than she stood by the cross. She is there, as ever, co-operating with Jesus - the Woman, foretold from the beginning, crushing the serpent's head. A loving attention to her ought, therefore, to form part of every Mass rightly heard.” - The Legion of Mary, The Liturgy of the Eucharist in Union with Mary, "Holy Mass" 2007

So nobody's got the Latin version of the encyclical? I'll "resolve" this shortly, but I am disappointed we couldn't get to the bottom of this. Oh well.

Daver, cute. Catholics didn't exist during the writing of the New Testament, so I guess you win, sort of. Oh, and yes, I'm Sola Scriptura guy. All final decisions regarding dogma shall be arbitrated according to the plain sense meaning of the Biblical text. This is not to reject the illumination available from the gifted teachers of the church. But no man's conscience can be bound by lesser authorities than Scripture, especially when Scripture's obvious meaning is defeated by traditions of men. "Obvious" here relies on Aquinas' sense of the rational capacity of all competent persons to discern the meaning of language.

However, I will say that I believe God anticipated the Marian excesses, and deliberately incorporated those passages where Jesus purposefully deflates the enthusiasm of those who wished to recognize Mary beyond proper measure. See Luke 11:27-28. So in that sense, Scripture does set a firewall against such notions. God knew what was coming.

Misty, I believe in the 5th commandment too. It speaks more generally of giving honor to whom honor is due, whether parents or kings or peers made in God's image. Protestants have more of a two-tier understanding of respect; that which is due God, and that due everyone else. The "everyone else" tier is a finely granulated scale that recognizes the differing roles and levels of authority or significance, but which lacks the objective indicators of god-worship, such as bowing down to statues, or attributing the power of salvation, or offering praises and requests that would best be delivered directly to God, etc. This is how Protestants keep themselves pure. Even if Catholics could venture into the stratospheric zone of hyperdulia without slipping into latria, per Romans 12, they could not take on the objective indicators of true worship without causing the “weaker” among us to stumble. Therefore, as a matter of love, hyperdulia, even if it were permissible, would still be wrong.

To All, I have initiated a request to the Vatican to provide a Latin copy of the encyclical in question. As I do not know how long it will take to get a response, I will resolve this now. First, I suspect you are right that a well-trained Pope would not normally make such an error. Furthermore, I have found an English translation of the Bull Ineffabilis Deus which translates the word “venerate.” As Pius XII is quoting the Latin of this earlier document, it substantially increases the likelihood that the technically appropriate word was used. Nevertheless, I will pursue the evidence to the endpoint because there will be some obvious benefits in settling this definitively. It is always better to win one’s case on the basis of valid evidence. If you wish to be notified of the eventual results, just drop me an email.

About the question. As Meg was the first to respond fully to the “call of the question,” the points go to her. But I benefitted from all your responses, so please accept, in lieu of real points, a great big cyber-hug. See, I don’t hate you. I just feel horrible for you, that you buy into such an elaborate rationalization that it deprives you of a fully Christocentric soteriology. For future reference, please don’t be so defensive against genuine inquiry. Don’t call seeking truth a lie, or defame the desire to learn as a demonstration of ignorance, or stubbornly interpret an act of love as an act of hate. I expect that of certain persons here on R&S, but not of those who name Jesus as their Savior. Peace.

Answer 1

I was not able to find the Latin version, either, but I did find it in Italian, where the word used is "onorare", which means "to honor". The Portuguese version also uses a word meaning "honor" ("honra"). I would just chalk it up to poor translation for the English version, especially for American English speakers of today, who generally have a very narrow understanding of the word "worship" and do not understand its origin.

Answer 2

Well you have some very good answers here.

I searched without success for the Latin version of the Fulgens Corona. But based on reason (which is still a valid way of figuring things out) I would have to say that the English translation is lacking.

We can reason that knowing the teaching of the Church, that no Pope would "state" that we should or do worship Mary. This would be contrary to the very dogma of Catholicism. It would be a heretical statement. It doesn't make sense that a Pope would put out an encyclical in which he makes a statement that goes against what all Catholics and Catholicism itself, know to be the truth. We do not and never have worshiped Mary. It just doesn't stand up to reason that a Pope would even say such a thing.

Also, we can be sure that the knowledge Pope Pius XII had of Latin was extensive. Therefore, he would not make an error in his choice of words.

Also, the fact that the other translations do, in fact, use a lessor word meaning honor, tells us that the original Latin version also used the lessor word. Just because the English has only one word for all levels of honor is a problem of translation not of original meaning.

Additionally, as others have stated, an encyclical is not dogma. Even if (and I say this only to play the other side) the Pope had said this, or even thought this, he would be dead wrong. This would not be a statement involving all Catholics, but the one Catholic who made the remark. A Pope is a man, he can be wrong in his opinions. He is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra. I don't believe he stated we worship Mary, but if he did that statement would be in error and on his own head.

As far as kneeling to a statue, this is not worship either. I was told by a fundamentalist (my high school principal) that when we knelt down to place presents under a Christmas tree, we were worshiping that tree. The point is that what something "looks like" does not mean that's what it is.

For your family members, who you feel have put Mary above Jesus...if that is so, it is their own doing. Because they do it does not make it a Catholic teaching. The last thing Mary would want is to be worshiped...she worships the Lord as we do.

Also, your quote about Mary being co-redeemer is true. This is not worship. Her willingness to abandon herself to God and his will did assist in the salvation of man. She is the one who gave her flesh to God's son, she is the New Eve born without sin who "chose" to cooperate with God and his plan to save us. This is honor due her above any other human being. She is not divine but she is the mother of all us, and as Jesus would have kept the 5th commandment to honor her, so must we.

Answer 3

The RCC does not worship Mary. But she has a "special position".
The immaculate conception is a dogma, a cardinal point of doctrine for the RCC since 1854. This means: if you do not believe in it, you are not a catholic. Hello Tony Blair!

"It was not until 1854 that Pope Pius IX, with the support of the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholic Bishops, whom he had consulted between 1851–1853, proclaimed the doctrine in accordance with the conditions of papal infallibility that would be defined in 1870 by the First Vatican Council." Wikipedia.

Immaculate conception is part of the dogma, no way around that

Officially the RCC does not worship Mary. They only worship God. That is a laugh of course.
Many months ago I have proposed a bet here, but received no response:
Anyone who claims the RCC does not worship Mary is invited by me to make a tour through South Italy and Spain. We will interview people in churches and see what they have most in their homes: the croos or the virgin. The person who loses the bet pays the bill. I only stay in better hotels (non US, non chains) and only go to better restaurants. I suggest 3 weeks. We could also go to Poland, but I do not like the kitchen there, though they have good hotels.
The RCC do not worship Mary, they just encourage the people to worship her and then act as if they can not stop the simple people.
Catholics have found out from a very early stage that irrationality is the key to the religious market .That is why they win from the protestants. That is why they migh lose from more more irrational denominations.

Answer 4

You say you are troubled by your family members practicing their Catholic faith and you believe they honor Mary only excluding Jesus. Did they tell you that they worship Mary and not Jesus? Or that they give honor to Mary more than to Jesus? If they told you that then you have reason to worry because that is not Catholicism. But could it be that you have misunderstood their religion and their devotional practices? Could it be that you are troubled because they do not share or agree with your religious beliefs?

I have relatives who are Protestants and some are even fundamentalists. As a Catholic should I be troubled? Should I tell them that they are heretics and they should go back to the true Church? Technically, they are heretics and although they are Christians, they are separated from the Body of Christ. And because of this they fall into error when interpreting the Bible. That is why there are so many protestant sects and fundamentalist cults. Of course, they would disagree with my belief (and I am sure you do too). But I have to be tolerant of other people's religious beliefs (as long as they don't openly attack my own religion because then I will have to defend it). l love my relatives even though they are not Catholics. I am sure you love your family members who are Catholic but maybe you should also be more tolerant.

Answer 5

So one statement from a pope constitutes, in your mind, "evidence of a direct sanction of Marian worship" unless you are shown a Latin translation that indicates hyperdulia?

We worship at Mass. Show me one part of the liturgy -- any liturgy of the Roman rite -- that has us kneeling to Mary in worship. That would be the evidence. Your gleeful "aha!" here is misplaced. Oops.

Edit: Okay, so a Latin translation of "Fulgens Corona" isn't immediately available online. But I'm certain there is one. Would you accept it after the fact, if one can locate it, and post a retraction of your accusation? Or have you imposed a time limit, as well?

Answer 6

Ah, what a wonderful mixer of truth you are.

Hello there. I am Protestant Southern Baptist.

The Pope there was NOT speaking "ex-cathedra." I do hope you know what that means, because it makes all the difference.

Catholics do not worship Mary. In fact, her veneration is quite VOLUNTARY in the Church. It is not Catholic dogma. But then you would know that if you actually studied, wouldn't you?

EDIT - Lie, my friend. I'm sorry, but you're missing the point. The Veneration of Mary is quite optional, it is NOT a part of their doctrine, I know because I have spoken to a Catholic nun and I have read the Catholic catechism. Can you say the same? Please, I beg you, do not discount your history based on the teachings of your pastor. Do your own research. Our "in-fighting" just makes us look worse in the eyes of the non-believers. Email me if you wish to discuss more, I will not contend with a brother in the sight of non-believers any more.

EDIT EDIT - Again, holding a reverence for Mary is optional. There is nothing in Catholic DOGMA that requires it, and in fact, there is absolutely nothing that requires her worship. I would faithfully ask you to prove me wrong.
Again, I am a Southern Baptist, not a Catholic, and welcome the discussion.

Answer 7

Mary is a vessel of God, but I don't believe that she is to be worshiped, In fact when one of the women in the bible calls out, " Blessed is the woman who bore you and at who's breasts you nursed", Christ rebukes her and he says "Blessed are all who believe", There is never any place in the bible where God, or Christ tells us to pray to Mary. In fact the bible says that we are to have no other gods before them, and when we pray to Mary , that would be putting her before God and that my friend is a sin. The bible strictly says that the only way to the Father is through the Son, Jesus Christ. He is the one that died on the Cross, NOT MARY! She was simply a vessel. Just like the basket that carried Moses. God sent his son to die for our sins. Even Mary sinned.

Answer 8

Your link is corrupted, but I trust your quote.
Oh, us evil Catholics. I feel a great evil laugh bubbling up.
MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!

There is an apocryphal text citing an encounter with Belial, who Christ puts under the foot of St Bartholomew. In this position, he must tell the truth, and St Bartholomew asks him how he is going to tempt souls. Belial spills the entire story of how Genesis comes about, and why he ended up opposed to God. When he saw Adam made in the image of God, and Michael commanding him to bow to Adam (for he was made in God's image), Belial refused. Why should I bow to a creature that is less than me? he said.

So there you have it.

edit: my point, my dear friend, is that the angels themselves, by example of St Michael fall down before us, mere humans because we are the IMAGE of God. I think this apocryphal gospel says alot. I just found it the other day, and my thirsting soul has drunk of it, and found it strong, and heady.

Answer 9

Let me guess. . . You're one of those Christians who thinks the only legitimate source of Christian Dogma comes from the Bible. Okay, rather than provide quotes from a source you yourself don't even believe to be a valid source, why don't you provide us with ACTUAL BIBLICAL EVIDENCE alleging Catholics worship Mary.

I would very much like to see this Biblical evidence. . .How about it?

Answer 10

Pastor Art, with all due respect, why do you feel that we cannot ask the Blessed Mother, the saints, or even our family/friends to pray for us here one earth? Sure, they are "dead" in a physical sense... but do not forget, they are more ALIVE than ever, in Heaven, with Christ. With peace and love in Christ