Jesus and John the Baptist started out together, and Jesus had the very highest praise for John and his ministry... and yet today's preachers seem to overlook Lk. 3:3 and Mark 1:4 about John preaching the baptism of repentance for the "forgiveness of sins." It suggests that John's baptism had the power to forgive sins long before the crucifixion came along. Just another Gospel Enigma... or can you explain why preachers consider Luke 3:3 about the forgiveness of sins, so unimportant.
If you want the context of this question... http://gospelenigma.com ...find it in chapter 7
2007-12-27 00:11:01 · 11 answers · asked by Anonymous in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
This is a long response. But I have not cut/pasted. I'm leaving out alot of Greek word tracing that took me quite awhile to track here, FROM BOOKS, not the internet. Doing my own studying and research. So I'm not an absolute authority. I just know that I know that I know. Debate over this can and does rage. I'm not into that. But I will share this information with you all:
I'm responding to this verse Q within the context of the writing, I'm not separating it out. I would hope not to add confusion or misunderstanding this way.
John and Jesus were indeed cousins. While they knew each other, their lives were in separate parts of the country. John being the elder. His 'job' was to 'prepare the way' for Jesus' ministry. They walked together physically from time to time, but each had a specific job that the other did not and could not do. Just as when you take remedial classes in university before you can get to the 'heady' stuff. And you see the professors congregating together and even talking and discussing with small groups of interested students. But not an actual 'class'.
This particular verse is about the alignment of heart and mind. Up to Jesus ministry, people 'sinned' and 'repented' and went back out and did it again, without giving it a second thought, animals were used for this. They were 'missing the mark' on this point. Water baptism being an identifying act here signifying aligning with what is coming. The Hebrews had a water ritual held in a MIKVAH (a pool of 'holy' water they submerged and walked through signifying that they were now cleansed of the world's 'dirt' and so were cleaned inside and out in order to celebrate God in the highest clearest most aware state) This water cleansing ritual was performed by many different sects. John was bringing water baptism to the general public at large, not just the Hebrew nation (of which Judiasm is but one sect)
The words Repentence & Remission used in this verse are about movements of the mind and heart away from the misunderstanding and missing the mark (sin) of spiritual at-one-ment [atonement]. 'Fore-giving' oneself privately and in public and standing firm in God's Truth is essential and takes repeated disciplined use of self-will in an environment where self-will runs riot. This verse speaks that while this indicates the individual's movement toward clarity, and is a release from the hold of misconceptions [the deliverence of the 'sinner' from the power of 'sin'], it does not indicate that the environment, or presence of 'sin' is done away with [cultural and societal misconceptions continue, as it were]. {That sinful environment is handled at the resurrection when even the physical body is lifted up into the light of Absolute Truth and comprehension - and we ain't there yet} This means that imperfection and repetitious 'sinning' occurs, not from a hard heart, so there is the conscious 'ritual' of moving away from the sinning attitude, baptism by water, which was John's business. Did Jesus baptize by water - why wouldn't He? Right up to the point where the next lesson was baptism of Holy Spirit. Remember Jesus was considered wonderful Teacher and Counselor, even by those who did not believe him to be the only begotten son of God. They called him Rabbi. He taught the priests in the temple when he was but 12 and not yet a 'man' in that culture. So this is part of His teaching ministry. Water Baptism gets you a B.A., Holy Spirit a Master's Degree and Resurrection Day a PhD - this is a poor analogy at best, but it does serve here.
These Greek words in the verse you select that I'm speaking of are not the same as the word for the temporary bypassing of 'sin' [again sin here is defined as 'missing the mark' - misunderstanding, off base, misconstruance]. This is about a person's mind and heart aligning - knowing that you know that you know. And then you are 'cleansed' of 'sin' [misunderstanding]
That is what John the Baptist was teaching at that time. Today it might sound something like this:
Prepare yourselves, internally, mentally. Align your mind with your heart, not the other way round. God's Truth is coming in physical form, and you need to be prepared to receive it. And if you like my teachings there is One who is coming who is so awesome, I can't even get near Him in understanding and demonstration, to even tie his laces on his shoes. He far outdistances me. I just am telling you the Good News of what is coming. It's so awesome. But if you don't prepare yourselves, you will miss it. If you like me, you'll adore Him.
One cannot receive Principle Truth if heart and mind are at odds with each other. When the person is separated inside, [convinced their way of thought is total truth, not allowing for 'higher' truth to take precedence, that would communicate itself through the heart to the mind] there is a filter in the ears and eyes, as it were, and so the person cannot see nor hear clearly and thus is unable to live in the Truth [with a capital T in contrast to 'worldly truths']. This is a very subtle separation in most cases, and that's why there is such difficulty with this stuff for many. Either you choose to believe or you don't. Convincing doesn't come from without, it comes from within the soul (mind [conscious, subconscious and super-conscious]; will; & emotions).
In re: your 'preacher' comment, people do what they do, it is covered in what I shared earlier. We are still in a 'sin'ful environment. I don't know that ALL ministers believe that is so - [not important]. Everyone is doing the best they know how to do. When they know better, they get to do better. Only the OnePower&Presence knows the intention of a man's heart.
To me this is not a Gospel Enigma - it is a personal internal enigma to which light can be shed if the heart and mind align and desire it so.
Wow, longest answer ever from me. But I'm not apologizing. Other people get to read these answers long after we have departed the arena. I'm not on a rant. That was an explanation around that verse and your Q.
Blessings all :)
2007-12-27 05:16:56 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
Perhaps you might want to read a little more about John the Baptist, since God placed him on the earth to announce Jesus. John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
If John the Baptist could actually forgive sin, which he couldn't, doesnt this seems like a silly thing to say?
There are no forbidden Bible verses, examine them in the light of God's Spirit
2007-12-27 00:35:17 · answer #2 · answered by Dan S 2 · 1⤊ 0⤋
I do not agree that John and Jesus 'started out together'.
Repentance is only a step towards salvation. Salvation comes through what we turn to instead of our ways - and that is God's ways.
So the act of repentance is to turn away from or ways - to the salvation which is brought by God through His Son.
John's baptism was not a baptism of the Holy Spirit: The baptism which really makes a difference.
So John was 'preparing the way', Jesus is actually the 'way' he was preparing the way for.
2007-12-27 00:56:37 · answer #3 · answered by Christian Sinner 7 · 2⤊ 0⤋
John the Baptist is the baptism of repentance. The purpose of repentance is stated by Jesus in:
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the gospel.”
The repentance is a call of change of mind from following the law of Moses to believing in the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ or the kingdom.
2007-12-27 00:32:23 · answer #4 · answered by seekfind 6 · 2⤊ 0⤋
Thats exactly what we teach today.
How do you get it backwards?
John's baptism was a baptism of "repentance". it was not John's baptism that effected the forgiveness, but the sinners "repentance". Thats what we teach today.
Repentance is what Jesus taught. Before the new covenant a Jew had to keep the law and go to the temple for animal sacrifice to have their sins removed. Today we must only "repent" and believe in Jesus' final sacrifice for our sins.
2007-12-27 00:21:17 · answer #5 · answered by Poor Richard 5 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Repentance has always been a means of forgiveness of sins. How do you think Old Testament believers were saved? They repented their sins and held onto their faith of the coming Messiah who would save them from their sins. This baptism works together with repentance for the forgiveness of sins. This application of water signifies the blood of Christ that washes away all sin.
2007-12-27 01:15:45 · answer #6 · answered by Amy 4 · 1⤊ 0⤋
No.
The bible never implies that John the Baptist could forgive sins, or that mere water baptism would somehow "wash away sin". John's baptism seems quite obviously to have been part of what Jesus himself called "fruit that befits repentance" (Matt 3:8) and what the future apostle Paul would call "works that befit repentance". It was to be a watershed moment for the baptismal candidate, and a resolution to do better.
...(Acts 26:20) I went bringing the message that they should repent and turn to God by doing works that befit repentance.
Paul also spoke the following regarding John the Baptist:
...(Acts 13:23-25) From the offspring of [David] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus, after John, in advance of the entry of that One, had preached publicly to all the people of Israel baptism in symbol of repentance. But as John was fulfilling his course, he would say, ‘What do you suppose I am? I am not he. But, look! one is coming after me the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’
(Luke 3:16) John gave the answer, saying to all: “I, for my part, baptize you with water; but the one stronger than I am is coming, the lace of whose sandals I am not fit to untie. He will baptize you people with holy spirit and fire.
2007-12-27 00:33:07 · answer #7 · answered by achtung_heiss 7 · 2⤊ 1⤋
no it does not.....continue on and read as far as Luke 3:6, John was preparing men to,asking them to change their ways for the Christ who would be coming soon and saving them soon. John's baptisms only showed who was worthy of Jesus
2007-12-27 01:30:24 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
Baptism itself forgives nothing. It merely makes the soul amenable to Christ's salvific sacrifice by removing the stain of Original Sin, ie, that predilection for sinning that was the result of the First Couple's really big boo-boo (whatever it was).
2007-12-27 00:20:43 · answer #9 · answered by Granny Annie 6 · 1⤊ 1⤋
Grace & Peace to you from God & Son Unlimited.
Indeed, the enigma, and the contradictions, and what about this, and what about that; Not to mention what about neither this nor that, but "above" all the sides wars, is a heaven that is "higher than the heavens". And what about love or charity, what about love often fails, but charity never faileth is above forgiving one another because charity thinketh no evil. What about love one another and forgive one another is childish law law. What about law imputing sin to forgive has a deadly sting, and law is the source and strength of sin's death sting?
Two Gospels: both go global for comparison:
- Law: imputation of sin and forgiveness of sin
- Grace: no imputation of sin and reconciliation
Law speaks of atonement, vengeance, redemption, wrath, condemnation, sacrifice, forgiveness, unpardonable sin, fear hath torment, curse of the law, shoulder high bloodshed that purges almost all sin, evil concupiscence, and finally death.
Grace speaks only of salvation from law and reconciliation to God through Jesus Christ, by putting away childish laws, and sides wars (divisions), even the sides war of law vs grace since it still gives place to law, for salvation by grace only; And of you all since there is no respect of persons with God.
So let's stop all the enigmas, contradictions, translation wars, sides wars, divisions of denominations, and think globe-all, before the BIG Meltdown gone exponential kills 1/3 of all life. For it's becoming as silly as Nero fidelled while Rome burned; With the latest craze of Jesus Freaks getting high on another law being Paul is the Anti-Christ, for he said God hath forgiven you for Christ's sake and while you were yet an unrepentent sinner, thereby contradicting Jesus said unless you forgive all men all sins, neither will my Father forgive you, but send you the tormentors to torment you, and blasphemy the Ghost is unpardonable, both in this world and the to come.
Get real, for if the truth be known, the only plausible escape for any and all (since God hath no respect of persons), the only way to really and truly have forgiveness of sins and a purged conscience, once and for all, is by abolition of law: the accuser of our brethren, the ministration of condemnation, and the ministraton of death. For anything less than never fail is a fail-u-are; And failure is not allowed into heaven above, for a little leaven can leaven the whole, like a little cancer can kill the whole body, including the head of the body.
So, as the law says on the news today: 'people should wise up about thieves'; And the law is the biggest thief of all, for it cometh only to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. Selah.
The GRACE of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.
2007-12-27 02:26:15 · answer #10 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋