What do you know about Mao?

Question

There are many posts in R & S, putting Mao in the company of Hitler. My question is: What do you know about Mao that makes him deserve your black list? He did not even kill the last emperor who was a traitor. His failed economic policy caused famine and death of millions. But that can not label him as evil.

Truman dropped two atomic in Japan, and fire bombed Tokyo, killing millions. Didn't he intend to kill innocent people?

For Wyomugs:
I am talking about killing innocent people here. You said every elderly, woman and child in Japan were soldiers and deserved to die in fire bomb and atomic bombs. That is deplorable. I doubt very much that your numbers are accurate. The Chinese people revere Mao for bringing China from a humiliated nation to a world power. It is for Chinese people to judge Mao, not any foreigner. If Mao is responsible for the death in the Civil War, who is responsible for the 500,000 in the American Civil War? Is George Bush responsible for the 87,000 Iraqi death for far?

For MumOf4:
What the early Americans and Australians did to the natives is genocide, same thing Hitler did. China was at war with Japan for 8 years. Thousands of Chinese died of starvation daily. Chiang tried to eliminate the Communists but failed. Mao led a revolution against the Nationalist government to save China. The winner is a king and the loser is a bandit. This is civil war and many people died. But this is no genocide.

Answer 1

Mao Zedong pronunciation (help·info) (Simplified Chinese: 毛泽东; Traditional Chinese: 毛澤東; Pinyin: Máo Zédōng; Wade-giles: Mao Tse-tung; December 26, 1893 – September 9, 1976) was a Chinese military and political leader, who led the Communist Party of China (CPC) to victory against the Kuomintang (KMT) in the Chinese Civil War, and was the leader of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) from its establishment in 1949 until his death in 1976.

Regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world history, Mao is still a controversial figure today, over thirty years after his death. He is held in high regard in China where he is often portrayed as a great revolutionary and strategist who eventually defeated Chiang Kai-shek in the Chinese Civil War, and transformed the country into a major power through his policies. However, many of Mao's socio-political programs such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are blamed by critics from both within and outside China for causing severe damage to the culture, society, economy and foreign relations of China, as well as enormous and unnecessary loss of lives, a peacetime death toll in the tens of millions.

Although still officially venerated in China, his influence has been largely overshadowed by the political and economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping and other leaders since his death. Mao is also recognized as a poet and calligrapher.

Answer 2

I know nothing about Mao. But your question sounds interesting... Was Mao a religious leader as well as a political one? (ie, just wondering why you chose to post your question in R&S)

Thanks Warriorpooflinger for pointing out this interesting question.

OKIM, who was/is Mao? (I hope my ignorance does not offend... I am curious! :-)

EDIT: Thanks wyomugs, for that clarification.

OKIM, regarding your additional details, even though Hitler was evil, and did horrendous atrocities, he also did it all in the name of "improving" his country. He had a set image in his mind as to what was right and good, and he was willing to go to ANY lengths to turn HIS vision into reality.

Today, our worldwide society benefits from advances in science that Hitler caused to happen. These scientific advances involved horrendous abuses of human rights... yet we can thank Hitler for these "improvements". That doesn't change the fact that he was willing to commit atrocities to gain his ends...

The nature of the actions that we are willing to take to achieve our goals are an accurate measure of our natures... whether they are of darkness or of the Light.

Hitler had a vision... and he made it come to pass... It sounds like Mao was similarly in love with HIS OWN idea of what the world should be, and was equally willing to do ANYTHING to make it come to pass.

Self-willed and a-moral. That leads to darkness. Hence, he belongs, with Hitler, on the black list.

P.S. The British people in Australia had similar self-styled visions of what the world should be. The British government and "the arm of the law" butchered the Aborigines and deliberately decimated almost all trace of Aboriginal culture, leading to so much suffering that indigenous Australians experienced, and still do experience now.

I am not proud of that aspect of Australian history and we need to begin to right the wrongs that have occurred, and try and restore dignity and culture to those who had it violently taken away.

I wonder what Australia would be like today if the Aborigines had not been robbed of their culture, murdered, tortured, raped, abused, decapitated, mocked and totally devalued?

Perhaps Australian culture would not be so very "white" (commericalised) ... perhaps the Aborigines would feel that they had a spiritual home, and felt like they fit in somewhere. Perhaps they would be proud and strong.

Many indigenous Australians are having a hard time of things, because they find it very difficult to fit into the mainstream Australian culture. Likewise, there are/will be individuals in China, who cannot fit into the strict "vision" of things that Mao had, and who suffer in their oppression of spirit (or who would have suffered if he had not caused them and all of their descendants to be eliminated).

When people have rigid ideas of what is acceptable, it creates suffering, especially when their rigid ideas are accompanied by a feeling of superiority over people who are different.... Hilter, Mao and the British colonists in Australia (and other nations) all had "superior" views, and were willing to do ANYTHING to ensure that their own visions became reality.

Sure, I have enjoyed my white Australian heritage... but I am only just now beginning to see how the dogmatic and arrogant supremacy of that heritage has made it impossible for other people to enjoy THEIR OWN heritage.

Like the British "colonists" in Australia, Mao stole the heritage of many people...

This world is composed of many different people. No one vision is suitable to be imposed upon all the people of the world, or all the people in one country. I guess that is where both Hitler and Mao got it wrong and the reason why humans need to have the right to be who and what they are, without being killed or persecuted for that.

I grew up white Australian, and was very resistant to the idea that the progenitors of my culture committed horrendous evil in order to establish this culture in this land. I was angry at the Aborigines for complaining. But you see, we were taught in school about "this great country" and we were never taught the horrendous things that were done to make this "great country". I think the same may be true for you. I am assuming you are Chinese, and have grown up in the system created by Mao... and been taught how wonderful that system is. This is why it seems wrong to you that people should put Mao on a black list. But the reality is that the creators of both your culture and mine, did horrendous and unconscionable things in order to establish "this great nation".

It makes me want to reconsider the whole concept of national pride... Why can't we just be proud to be human? There is so much good in our species... and so much beautiful potential. The past is not what it should have been. But we can certainly be proud of the progress we have made towards multicultural unity and tolerance. The world is such a fascinating place!

Answer 3

In my Eastern Religions class (intro to) we spent at best an hour discussing Mao and I wish it were more. I'd like to engage you on this topic but I am no where near prepared to do so. I will watch your question and answers though, I hope to learn something. Thank you.

Answer 4

First of all... I have been posting on R&S for over a year now, and, while I am not "on" it 24/7, I have never ONCE seen neither a question NOR any answer EVER refer to Hitler and Mao together.... in fact, THIS question is the FIRST question I've even SEEN Mao's name used... in nearly 1-1/2 YEARS.

Frankly, I do not see how you can "defend" Mao. I studied China in college, and cannot begin to list his "qualifications" to be on a "black list," the LEAST of which has been referred to as the "Cultural Revolution." Such a gentile term to describe torture ("Many religious buildings such as churches and temples were looted and destroyed.[9] The most gruesome aspects of the campaign were the torture and killing of innocent people and the suicides that were the final options of many who suffered beatings and humiliation. In August and September, there were 1,772 people murdered in Beijing alone. In Shanghai in September there were 704 suicides and 534 deaths related to the Cultural Revolution." ... "Millions of people in China reportedly had their human rights annulled during the Cultural Revolution. Millions more were also forcibly displaced." .... "[The] Gang of Four [was] being used as convenient scapegoats, rather than focusing upon Mao Zedong's responsibility." --- Wikipedia)

According to the website below, Mao was "responsible" for:

2.5 MILLION deaths during the Chinese Civil War (1945-49) AND ADD to THAT another 40 MILLION during Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975)... totallying 42.5 MILLION people who DIED "at the hand" of Mao. that is NOT including all the tortures, civil rights violations, etc etc that were alluded to above... which really cannot be measured.

Both the atomic bombs AND ALL the "conventional" bombings of Japan totalled (at the "worst guess" estimates) "only" 500,000 Japanese killed. Do you know how many people the Japanese killed during WWII??? According to the same website below, the "estimate is that 11M civilians and 4.5M soldiers died in the Asian/Pacific War. That's 15,500,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on the Japanese to one extent or another."

Are you STILL willing to quote statistics? Okay, here comes more.... the US millitary (by these estimates) were "responsible" for only a total of about 2 million deaths (note: Hitler is ultimately responsible for the deaths of his own troops, since HE started the war!... therefore, while US & Allied troops killed many of the enemy, they are counted as HITLER's RESPONSIBILITY... same thing with Japan).

Now... with ALL the BODY COUNTS accounted for... even then, "EVIL" is NOT defined as BODY COUNTS... it is MOTIVATION.

The US atomic bombing was intended NOT to "kill people for the sake of KILLING people," it was intended to END the WAR. Even AFTER Germany had SURRENDERED already (V-E day was May 7 and May 8, 1945, Japan did NOT surrender and continued it's fighting and killing. Without the A-bomb, the only means of getting the Japanese "to the table" was a possible Allied invasion of the Japanese mainland. The estimates of death toll on ALL sides was incredibly mind-boggling. Truman decided that for the "good" of the WHOLE, it was best to demonstrate to the Imperial Japanese government that it would be in THEIR BEST INTEREST to surrender. So the Hiroshima was bombed. And STILL, the Japanese refused to surrender. So Nagasaki was bombed. FINALLY, they came to their senses and surrendered on August 14/15, 1945.

The killing of "millions" that you speak of is really the RESPONSIBILITY of JAPAN, and NOT the US/Allied forces. And as far as killing "innocent people"... well... as far as the Japanese cultural mindset was, ALL people (Women, children, elderly alike) were "soldiers"... they viewed THEMSELVES NOT as "innocents" but as WARRIORS. So, they labeled THEMSELVES not as "innocents," so why should YOU?

We've sort of STRAYED from Mao, now haven't we? But what I'm trying to say here is ... you cannot simply throw statistics out like you have and not place the responsibility where IT belongs.

Back to Mao.... again from wikipedia... "Mao reacted first by accusing the opponents of opportunism and kulakism and then set off a series of systematic suppressions of them. Later the suppressions were turned into bloody physical elimination. It is reported that horrible forms of torture and killing took place. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday claim that victims were subjected to a red-hot gun-rod being rammed into the anus, and that there were many cases of cutting open the stomach and scooping out the heart. The estimated number of the victims amounted to several thousands and could be as high as 186,000."

Regardless of the number killed, does this describe EVIL, HORRIBLE torture? Not through YET, however...

"Mao’s first political campaigns after founding the People’s Republic were land reform and the suppression of counter-revolutionaries, which centered on mass executions, often before organized crowds. These campaigns of mass repression targeted former KMT officials, businessmen, former employees of Western companies, intellectuals whose loyalty was suspect, and significant numbers of rural gentry. Mao himself claimed a total of 700,000 killed during these early years (1949–53). However, because there was a policy to select "at least one landlord, and usually several, in virtually every village for public execution", 1 million deaths seems to be an absolute minimum, and many authors agree on a figure of between 2 million and 5 million dead. In addition, at least 1.5 million people were sent to "reform through labour" camps (laogai). Mao’s personal role in ordering mass executions is undeniable. He defended these killings as necessary for the securing of power."

Now THAT sounds like a pretty NICE GUY, uh??????? NOT!!!

I've quoted you only PART of what Mao was RESPONSIBLE for, and it looks to ME, and any sane-thinking person, that Mao was EVIL, he was power hungry and a meglomaniac.

Truman was NO such a person, nor was FDR, Churchill, Eisenhower. Their "killings" ENDED with the end of the war. Their "killings" were INTENDED TO END the war. Mao simply viewed killing as... and I requote... "as necessary for the securing of power." Now THAT'S EVIL!


Have a blessed day.