Question for people with training experience?

Question

I was visiting a family member with my dog and this family also has a dog. At the moment of my visit there was a friend of ours present at that house. This friend is a trainer.

When I go there, my dog always tries to dominate the other dog and it leads to growling and grabbing etc. They don't bite each other but It's noisy and annoying.

This trainer asked me if she could handle the situation, I said yes. She asked her husband to back away about 20 feet with the other dog. She laid my dog on the ground and held him there by the neck in a submissive position. He fought back as hard as he could, she did not hurt him but she held him till he gave out a big sigh and gave up fighting her back. Then she tells me: When your dog comes here he has to understand he's the submissive one.

What do you think of this?

I want to start professional training with my dog after the Holidays and of course she will expect me to go to her. I always wondered about how she handled the situation that day.

Answer 1

Bad method. I've studied dog behaviour and I have never seen a dominant dog alpha roll a submissive one.

It is a behaviour offered, offered being the keyword here, by the submissive dog and for adults it's usually only used by very submissive dogs or in extreme situations, where for example a dog is being attacked by another dog before it has had time to offer more subtle calming signals. It can also be used by dominant dogs to calm extremely fearful dogs or to invite puppies to play with them by showing them they are non-aggresive.

Forcing an alpha-roll is a provocation, much like someone walking up to you, twisting your arm on your back until you agree to him being the boss - human or dog, not everyone will put up with this, and none will like it. Also, what the trainer did, achieved nothing but your dog submitting to her, a stranger, who was rude and bossy. It did not show him that you did not approve of him dominating the other dog. He probably did not even make the connection between him dominating the other dog and her alpha-rolling him, because she set up a completely new situation with her husband removing the other dog and THEN she alpha-rolled him. To me it was nothing but a wasted exercise in brute force.

Dog dominance is rarely about physical strength or being bossy. I'm a tiny person and if it took brute force to control a dog, I'd be in big trouble. However, I'm not. Watch a dominant dog, and you will most likely see a calm, self-assured dog with a proud carriage. He won't be running around forcing the other dogs to submit, instead they will seek him out, licking the side of his mouth, narrowing their eyes, approach him sideways, puppies might roll on to their backs in front of him.

As for your dog in general. I do believe dogs should be allowed to establish their position. It's only when they are rude and keep pushing the matter after it has been resolved that I step in. Either by using a voice command such as "no" or "enough"...or by simply pulling the dominant dog off the other one.

Also, are you sure your dog is dominating the other dog? Mounting is the most common and most obvious display of dominance. Does he do this? Dogs play by growling and grabbing - and yes, it is noisy, because they will emphasize that it is play only by using exaggerated gestures such as wide open mouths, clumsy leaps, and loud play growls and high pitched barks.

So my opinion would be. Do not use this trainer. She uses extreme methods for something that could easily have been handled in a calmer, more correct way. And on top of that she seems to have very little notion on how dogs think. If she really wanted to make a point about your dog not dominating the other dog, she should have grabbed him in the act - not afterwards in a completely different situation. This is really common dog-training knowledge.

Answer 2

The "alpha roll" has been around sense you know who was a corporal, wasn't a good method then isn't a good method now.
If you want a submissive pet, get a gerbil.

The irony is that it is never the true dominant dog that starts trouble, they don't need to. If you ever get the chance watch the dogs carefully when a judge faces off a couple of Terriers because it doesn't work at all like most people think. The dominant dog of the pair will slightly turn away as if to say "you don't matter" and this will p*** off the submissive one to no end. So 99% of the time a person is going to be alpha rolling the wrong dog.

Answer 3

Your dog doesn't so much need to be submissive as he needs some manners. Otherwise he'll do what you let him do, and then some.

I am sympathetic to her to some extent, because I despise dogs running amok. But I didn't see what your dog did. If he was always the instigator, and the other dog was trying to avoid him, then it's a reasonable response (not the only one).

It's hard to admit that your dog is being a pest, and that someone had to step in to control him, so consider whether that is making you irritated with her... You need to ask her why she did what she did, and, if you train with her, also what she intends to teach you and your dog aside from submission. These are fair questions. Above all, you need to be able to communicate easily with your trainer.

What experience does she have? how many years in business? does she rely on training exclusively for her income? The answers to these questions will tell you if she's serious or another Cesar Millan (or fill in favorite TV trainer) wannabe.

Good luck.

Answer 4

I disagree with the method she used but for a different reason. She made the dog submit to HER, but in his mind he didn't submit to the other dog. A pack of dogs (which humans are considered part of a dogs pack in their mind), will find a "pecking order" as they jostle for position. Some will be the leaders and others submissive. If one submits to another, he doesn't necessarily submit to the third dog.. in other words, your dog is now submissive to the trainer, but the other dog is still submissive to him. You can stop the dominant AGGRESSIVE behavior with a firm command, and perhaps a pop of the leash, but in the dogs mind he will still be dominant over the other dog. So if they are alone, he might fight the other to assert his dominance. You should always supervise the two of them when they are together to prevent the aggressive behavior, and keep the other dog from getting hurt. By the way, I have found after 30 years of breeding/showing/training dogs that interfering in their pecking order usually increases the tension between the two. I stop any behavior that is overly aggressive, but don't try to make one submit to another when he/she is naturally dominant over the other. Doing so makes both dogs uncomfortable.

Answer 5

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of forcing submission. What SHOULD have been done is have the dogs meet on neutral territory and then both go back to the house together. Humans can control behavior, but dogs choose who is "higher" in the hierarchy than the other, it's not up to humans to decide this.

If your dog's behavior was inappropriate you should have corrected it or simply separated them until you left.

The bad side about "forcing" submission is that the dog can simply turn off. It's instincts are to be a leader and getting them quashed can result in problems. Think of a gifted piano player being denied a piano. However, "leader" and "aggression" often get confused. A leader is not aggressive. If you think your dog was aggressive then I'd work with the behaviorist as these problems can escalate.

Answer 6

Humans can not make this decision because it is instinctual and you have to let the dogs settle it. It really doesn't matter which dog ends up on top so long as THEY settle it. A dog is not submissive according to where he is and she is completely wrong. That tells me that she really does not understand dominance or she would not try to control it!!!!! I don't know where she got her methods but they are off the mark.

Answer 7

She did the right thing, if it were the other way around then there dog would have to be submissive at your place because that is your place and your dogs and they know what is theres and they are just showing each other that this is mine respect it. In training you can go to whoever you want, try out another trainer before you definetly settle on her.

Answer 8

She handled the situation perfect. If you can't introduce dogs under neuteral ground the dog who lives at the house should always be the dominant member. Dogs in the wild will pin each other to the ground to display dominance over the other. Sometimes it takes consistency but eventually the dog will submit. I'd recommend frequent socialization with other dogs. Also, whenever you introduce your dog to a new dog make sure he has had plenty of exercise and is in a tired state. This will keep his energy low and keep him more relaxed during the introduction. So many people today rely solely on tools rather than behavior modification. Untatural behavior modification can lead to a fight or flight response which can be counter productive. A simple choke chain a leash and a collar are all you should ever need. There is a big difference between training and behavior modification and while training is good it doesn't address beahavior problems.

Answer 9

This womans an idiot.She has no buisness training anyones dog and it's doubtful in my opinion she has a license.
When 2 dogs meet especially for the first time they should bwe in a calm state of mind YES but you do not achieve that by pinning one to the floor.A simple sit will do the trick.

Answer 10

That "trainer" watches too much TV in general and Mr Milan in particular. While I am the first one to advocate REAL obedience training that involves a prong collar and corrections instead of that drivel that has become a mantra here lately, "positive only", I will be damned if anyone will ever hold my dog down by the neck and make it submit to them, human or dog!!
Find a real trainer and get your dog trained. Depending on where you live, Tony of koehlerdogtraining can get you a reference to a good trainer.. Hope I helped!!