Why is it that while most HDTVs I've heard of DO have HDMI inputs but not FireWire/i.LINK inputs, _

Question

most D-VHS VCRS (yeah, you know the kind--VHS that can record a near-full-quality HD [normally digital] video as well digital SD video) I've heard of do NOT have HDMI outputs (or inputs) but DO have FireWire/i.LINK outputs (and inputs)? What's the point of making a consumer or prosumer HD VCR without a way to connect it to the TV digitally (though you can go through the analog HD connections--the RCA component connectors)?


Hey, will you come back periodically and look at my responses to your answers (as added detail), please?


Thanks, and happy Christmas,
Mike

Hi, Sir Bob X,

Thanks for your answer. Okay, so HDMI can carry copyright-contol information, but then a TV isn't a recorder, so why can't the TV, which wouldn't be able to copy anything, still have a FireWire/i.LINK connection to simply receive a picture?

Actually, yes, some consumer and/or prosumer HD video cameras DO have both FireWire AND HDMI connections, because I have exactly such a video camera (a Sony HDR-HC3).

And if you could connect your consumer video camera WITH HDMI to an HD VCR such as D-VHS, the HDMI connection wouldn't have to stop you from sending the signal from the camera to the VCR because while it can carry copy protection, it doesn't hve to all the time. So why don't many D-VHS VCRs have i.LINK/FireWire AND HDMI, then, so they can easily be digitally connected to TVs that don't have FireWire?

Oh, Sir Bob X, will you answer that follow-up question, please? (To do that if you want, go to your answer and click Edit and then add the follow-up material down below the original answer.)

Thanks,
Mike


Anyone else wanna try (taking my follow-up responses into account when you answer)?

Hi, Antiphon!

Whow, that's a GREAT, highly thorough answer! I really doubt anyone can beat that!

Yeah, so since I haven't seen any 1080P TVs with FireWire inputs, and since I can't find a D-VHS VCR with HDMI outputs, I guess the only thing left is going with the analog HD (via the Y, Yr, Yb jacks), as much as I was hoping to keep it digital all the way through. Well, maybe I won't notice the difference, though. I don't know...

I really just want an high-definition DVD recorder (such as Blu-ray or HD-DVD), but the prices for those are still much too high for me (even though you still have to expend hundreds just for the TV) at the moment. They'll come down in a while, though, so I just thought a good interrim would be the D-VHS machine.

I could probably record from an external tuner (free air, satellilte, or digital cable if I subscribe) to my HD video camera via the 1394 jacks people say those have, though, and then play out to my TV via the cam's HDMI-out jack, but

...we're going to give this TV and recorder to my parents, and I want them to have an HD recorder before the prices for HD-disc recorders come down AND without having to leave my camera down there as their recorder. :)

As far as copying from D-VHS was concerned, that's not an issue as far as connecting to the TV, because non-combo TVs, alone, obviously can't record anything. And I wasn't planning on copying D-Theater tapes anyway. But anyway, output from D-VHS to TV via component video will have to do, then...


Maybe I'll just have to go get some fully professional SDI equipment and hook THOSE together, then. (But you'd still have to convert that to at least DVI or HDMI for the 1394-less TV, huh?) :D


Thanks!

Hi, TV Guy,

Hmm, I wonder if I could have found a good TV for my parents like that on ebaY, but then at that time when I was shopping, I didn't think I'd run into this. Then I get the VCR (which I of course did buy on ebaY), and I was like, "Whoa, hmm... wait!" But I wanted to buy them a brand-new TV, so I didn't even think of going to ebaY for that (although yes, you sometimes can find some brand-new stuff there--I just didn't think HDTVs, and I didn't think about '04-05, either).

Well, next time I have enough money to buy the HDTV for myself (this one's going to my parents for Christmas), I'll investigate the somewhat older ones for 1394-in. But I also want the same to be 1080P! Hmm, don't know if I can find that combo.

Well, I guess going through the component jacks can't be THAT bad, huh? It just seems silly to have to dip down into analog (albeit HD analog) just to go back to digital, when there's so much digitality all around us now,

including a few different kinds of digital connections. Well, as I said to Antiphon, maybe I won't even notice the difference.

Oh well, I guess. Yeah, it should still be a pretty good-lookin' picture (provided that I really CAN still connect to record HD to D-VHS from an HD tuner of some sort, while waiting for the disc-based recorders to come down in price)!

Oh yeah, that's another thing! This D-VHS VCR doesn't have a built-in HD tuner! Why the crap not? (I'll ask that in a separate question here, too.)

Thanks, guys,
Mike


Mike

Answer 1

Of the few manufacturers that produced Digital VHS (D-VHS) HDTV recorders/players only JVC produced models, of which I’m aware, that were equipped with an HDMI connection - JVC models HM-DH5U and HM-DT100U. At this point in time, aside from JVC’s HM-DH5U (no built-in ATSC tuner) or HM-DT100U (built-in ATSC tuner,) it is extremely unlikely that you will ever see any new HDMI-equipped D-VHS recorders – there simply isn’t sufficient demand, which is why all but JVC’s Professional division have discontinued production of their D-VHS recorders. In large part the rapidly waning interest in D-VHS (though D-VHS never developed much of a following in the first place,) has been fueled by the popularity of alternative high definition “DV” recordable formats such as hard-disk high definition video recorders and—to a lesser extent—recordable optical disc formats, many of which are capable of using the newer, more advanced high definition codecs for video and audio.)

For the many D-VHS owners who own a non-HDMI-equipped D-VHS recorder/player the options are somewhat limited if they wish to view D-VHS tapes containing high definition content on an HDTV display that lacks an IEEE 1394 input. There are essentially three options: (1) you can either search for a used JVC HM-DH5U or HM-DT100U, in good condition; (2) purchase a new display with an IEEE 1394 (aka FireWire® or i.LINK) input; or (3) scour the “DV”/ “HDV” marketplace looking for a converter. (I believe Convergent Design manufactures such a product - see the resources below for their URL.) For current camcorder and D-VHS owners looking to playback the widest variety of digital video formats—without the hassle of buying a used HDMI-equipped D-VHS recorder or a hard-to-find converter—I recommend simply purchasing a new display equipped with one or more IEEE 1394 inputs (providing such an owner hasn’t recently purchased a new HDTV.) With respect to using a converter, even if you found a converter I would be very surprised if you were able to successfully playback prerecorded D-Theater tapes when the encrypted video data would have to traverse two incompatible content-protected digital interfaces. Of course you have one other HD output alternative when it comes to watching your D-VHS tapes, i.e., you can use the analog component video out (if your D-VHS recorder/player is so equipped.)

The reason you haven’t seen more HDMI-equipped D-VHS recorder/players is that back in 1996-1997, when JVC finalized the technical specifications for the D-VHS standard, the IEEE 1394 digital interface was the only practical, high-throughput, low-latency, small form factor (SFF,) point-to-point interface standard that was sufficiently robust enough to support digital audio and compressed high definition digital video; HDMI wasn’t introduced until 2002. Furthermore, during the period of time when the D-VHS standard was being developed nearly all digital (DV and HDV) camcorders were equipped with an IEEE 1394 interface. (USB was not a contender because, at that time, the USB 1.0/1.1 interface topped-out at 12Mbit/s, not to mention that the USB interface operates under a different topology than the IEEE 1394 interface, thus ruling-out USB as a viable interface for D-VHS recorders.)

HDMI has some rather notable advantages over the IEEE 1394 interface, namely HDMI is a synchronous* interface capable of achieving very high, sustained data throughput over significantly greater cable lengths. *(A synchronous interface is capable of inherently lower jitter than an isochronous serial interface such as IEEE 1394.) HDMI is essentially the only mainstream option available to consumers when it comes to the enormous data throughput one encounters when transferring uncompressed high-definition digital video through a digital interface; by and large even the latest versions of the IEEE 1394 interface are limited to compressed high definition digital video bitstreams.

By the way, not unlike the AACS/HDCP DRM copy protection used with the latest prerecorded high definition video optical disc formats, most prerecorded D-Theater tapes incorporate a form of content protection called DTCP (aka 5C,) which disables copying through the IEEE 1394 interface on D-VHS recorders.

JVC Digital VHS VCRs
http://support.jvc.com/consumer/product.jsp?pathId=50&archive=true

Single, Uncompressed, Digital HDMI(TM) Connection with Content Protection (HDCP) Technology
http://support.jvc.com/consumer/products/glossary.jsp?gId=139

All Specifications of D-VHS Digital Recording Format Finalized
http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/products/vcr/D-VHS-e.html

HDMI in HDV (IEEE 1394) and AVCHD Camcorders
http://www.convergent-design.com/hdmisipics/HDMI_in_HDV_and_AVCHD_Camcorders.pdf

Demystifying Cables and Connectors for Digital Formats
Part 2 - DVI, FireWire, and USB 2.0
http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=Demystifingcables2&version=print

Consumer Applications of the IEEE 1394 Serial Bus
http://www.ti.com/sc/data/msp/1394/icce96w.pdf

Enjoy A Secure HD Home Network
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/sllb104/sllb104.pdf

Intel - Content Protection in the Digital Home
http://www.intel.com/technology/itj/2002/volume06issue04/art05_protection/vol6iss4_art05.pdf

5C Digital Transmission Content Protection White Paper
http://www.dtcp.com/data/wp_spec.pdf

1394 Trade Association Technology
http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/About/faq.htm

HDMI™: The Digital Display Link
http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/whitepaper/SilicaonImageHDMIWhitePaperv73(2).pdf

HDMI FAQ
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx

Why HANA chose 1394 (over Ethernet and HDMI)
http://www.videsignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?printableArticle=true&articleId=197700676
 

Answer 2

Hollywood refused to support HD video unless they had some type of technical solution to make it hard to pirate shows or use a HD recording to create Tapes or Video CD's which can be sold across Asia and Europe.

HDMI is not a simple transfer like FireWire, USB, etc. There is software and copy protection features required in it's use.

Digital cameras, camcorders for home use dont use HDMI because they are designed to let users transfer things around.

Answer 3

Early HDTVs (2004-5 Sharp models for example) had iLink inputs (even two!).
TV manufacturers dropped it because it adds cost and HDMI is now the defacto standard for digital a/v.
CableCard went that way as well.