How can a Muslim know if another Muslim has left his religion, sufficient enough, to warrant "killing" him?

Question

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260: Narrated Ikrima: "...for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260

Killing people is a serious matter. We want to be sure that we dont kill people who havent really left the religion of peace. So, how can we be sure?

Even if someone declares another religion, maybe in their heart, they really havent left the peaceful embrace of the war religion (Islam). In fact, when you think about it, everyone leaves their religion all the time because it is impossible to "believe" all the time.

For example, right now you reading. Your not "believing" or worshiping or anything...just reading. So if your Muslim, should you now kill yourself?

The response is "ohh, but I still believe" to which I respond "so what...you dont always believe and even someone smart enough not to believe in Islam might one day become dumb enough to.."

EAC: "And really, incase you're a clueless, the majority of the world cultures have dead penalties for traitors, a much more merciless penalties for traitors are banishments."

So you admitt that Islam is a nationality. I appreciate the honesty in a response like this, as shocking as it is to people who are ignorant of Islam.

Of course, I agree with the underlying implications of your statement. Indeed, we cannot compare Islam to other religions...no other religion has a "death sentence" for those who leave. The closest possible comparison is the charge of "treason" from the state.

However, even trying to compare such a barbaric and savage edict, to the charge of "state treason" is that, with respect to citizenship, the state doesnt consider you guilty of treason for simply leaving the state and/or renouncing your citzenship.

EAC: Finally, I think its important for me to explain to you, a person from a vastly different culture, why those of us from civilization consider this Islamic edict so barbaric and insane.

You see, the threat of death is the most powerful threat one can impose. If a woman knows that a man will kill her if she leaves, then we look at her as a prisoner. In the case of religion, we likewise consider them to be prisoners and the ultimate victims of intimidation and brainwashing. After all, is there any better tool of complaince and brainwashing than the threat of death?

Answer 1

I have been sitting here for a while, staring at the screen with my jaw dropped.

Before I saw your question I went to my profile to edit it and I clearly stated there that I'm an apostate of Islam, and I really am.

I'm familiar with the ruling about the killing of the apostates and I cannot tell you how HAPPY I am that I don't live in a Muslim country. That could have been me.

It really gets to me to see that there are types that would be willing to kill me just because I don't believe Islam to be the true way anymore.

I guess types like Sen B kinda bring back hope to me.

EDIT: @ Deejay - you're obviously not familiar with Sharia Law which is based BOTH on Qur'an and Ahadith. Truth Seeker did not invent those, check out the references for the Ahadith in Bukhari's book of collected Ahadith and you'll see that it's true. Killing apostates is a part of Sunnah. I am aware that many Muslims don't agree with that ruling but there are many that do - and they apply it.

EDIT: Sen, I've checked out the link and I'm familiar with those verses. It still doesn't mean that Truth Seeker brought false references. He provided us with a strong Hadith, a very strong one mind you - which indeed does go against the Qur'an, but is still used to legislate the killings of apostates. I have no misconceptions about Islam, Sen. Do you think I left it overnight? Not till I've read Qur'an over and over again and not till I've read every single Hadith collected by Bukhari. My problem with Islam started when I found out that Ahadith which are obviously contradictory to Qur'an are being followed. So I discarded them and became a memeber of Ahle Al-Qur'an (Qur'an only followers). But a closer study of Qur'an has left me in awe or shall I say it made my jaw drop. I refuse to worship God whose words need sugarcoating, ''logical explanation'' and apologetic attitude. Since I never knew of other God but Allah, and my study of his word has dicredited him, I refuse to follow any.

Still, I thank you for your attitude.

P.S. Truth Seeker, sorry for taking so much space for speaking about my personal experience *grins*

Answer 2

"Is the best defense of Muslim terrorism "some Jewish people used to do it too, in the 1940s"?" The same is done when ultra liberals defend Islamic extremism, using the normal dribble of “Christianity used to kill people in the Dark Ages ” or “a few Christians have been arrested over the years” I've yet to work out the mentality of a person who compares crimes committed by a different religion hundreds of years ago, to a ideological movement being funded by corrupt countries in the 21st century. I'm sure they see some logic in it, but I'll be f***** if I know what it is.

Answer 3

First of all this is not from Quran, It is from one of sunni book which has never been consider aithentic in Shia Islam because of its narrators.
The problem is who ever learn a little bit about Islam and learn Arabic thinks he has become the teacher and tries to put Islam in their own way.
You should also look the incedent when, what and where that happened. What is the whole logic behind that.
In Islam no body is allow to kill anyone even if he or she is Muslim or not, and even if he do not want to follow the religion anymore.
Whoever have left Islam or any other religion and even he do not admit that its the mater between him and his God you have no right to come between them.
The only thing you can do is try your best to attract him toward the right path. If he don't listen just try to do the right things in front of him, so he would feel ashamed. He would not show his feeling around others but trust me at the end of the day he will be change.

Answer 4

Well, actually, the "(a Muslim)" don't exist in the originial text, so it's just "If somebody discards his religion/din/debt, kill him."

And really, incase you're a clueless, the majority of the world cultures have dead penalties for traitors, a much more merciless penalties for traitors are banishments.

The whole Hadits is this "Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish with God's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody discards his religion, kill him.'"



Anyway. Since you said killing is a serious matter, then it need to be check with the Qur'an, because the Qur'an hold the final and ultimate authority. Remember, before your kill or pardon anyone, always check the Qur'an.

The Qur'an just give a notice that the traitor will get his/her rewards in the afterlife, but he/she is pretty much left alone. However if the traitor decided to go on a war against God and His messengers, the punishment can be death or crucification or dismemberment (right hand and left leg or vice versa) or banishment.



As for on how to determine if a person believe or not.

If he/she is stupid (or smart, depending on the Point Of View) enough, he/she will announce it himself/herself. His/her words most probably will always go against the Qur'an.

If he/she decided to be silent in words, his/her actions will speak for themself. His/her actions most probably will always go against the Qur'an.



Also, every creatures (including humans) in the universe worship God all the time in some form of another, even if it's only looking at something. Only humans are stupid enough to defy God in their hearts.

And yes, the jobs of mu'mins (believers) are to think of God all the time. He/she eats for God, he/she drinks for God, he/she clothes for God, and so on. But God know that humans are weak, that's why God with His mercy regulary hide the weakness of humans. Humans though don't tend to do the same to other humans.



As for a flip-flop believe.

Well, what is judged is the current state.

Muhammad after all once accepted back a traitor after he swored by God that he's a believer again, eventhough the others are already ready to kill him and don't believe him.

Answer 5

Ever notice ahadith are always authentic and to be followed when Muslims quote them, but if brought up by non-Muslims then we hear how irrelevant they are and we should only use the quran? That's just so convenient! Oh and Christianity is always brought up, usually with a quote from the Old Testament. I wonder if they realize not everyone follows Christianity or Judaism (OT)?

Bukhari and Muslim are among the ahadith used and trusted most by Muslims themselves. Your quote is accurate and followed by Muslims, even if the hadith is horrible and violent.

I think a good guideline in testing to see if someone is a Muslim is to use this quote from Muhammad himself and see what answer is picked. After being visited by the spirit, Muhammad thought he was "a poet or possessed". A non-Muslim would agree with the possessed part.

God bless.

Answer 6

To make it more challenging let me share those 2 incidents:

1- During the Islamic conquest of Mecca, there was a mad by the name of Abdullah ibn Abi Alsarh. He had apostate but Muhammad never executed him!
2- Tulaiha ibn Khuwailid didn’t just apostate, he had also declared himself a prophet, & fought the Muslims after the death of Muhammad. 3 years later Omar became the Caliph & he didn’t execute Tulaiha. Omar admitted him back to the community!

I think it’s not only non Muslims who don’t understand Islam. The Muslims themselves are ignorant about many issues of their own religion, this includes today’s Muslim scholars as well.

Answer 7

I am not Muslim,but in my observation I found Muslims who have abandoned their religion(in western society) to be belligerent to religion they do not like being questioned about Islam and have a hatred towards western woman.
This is completely different to the case of Abdulrehmann (Afghanistan),who was accused of apostasy after he was found with a Bible.

Answer 8

lol, there must be millions of atheists in the Islamic world, strange you never hear a peep out of them.

Perhaps this is why the Islamic world is moving to the UK

Answer 9

"Killing people is a serious matter. We want to be sure that we dont kill people who havent really left the religion of peace. So, how can we be sure?"

How in any way can you call Islam a religion of Peace after that bein said? If Islamists believe their religion is the right one, then wouldn't you want to share that with others instead of killin them off? Wouldn't you feel like, "hey this is the way you wanna go, let me tell you about it" as oppose to "hey you don't believe therefore you should die"

There's nothin peaceful about that at all.

Answer 10

Great point.

And how does a Christian or Jew know that a family member believes enough in another religion to warrant stoning them?

Deuteronomy 13:6-8
'If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him.' ---- keep reading verses 9-10