Yes, I'm asking again. Why? Trinitarians have a hard time understanding John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6. They agree theres only one true God, but the one true God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
-Trinity Doctrine-
The Trinity consist of three persons, all being one God. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father and so on. So, by looking at these two verses, you have contradiction.
I have to explain this clearly because Trinitarians aren't getting the true understand of this verse.
In John 17:3, Jesus calls his Father the only true God, leaving out himself and the Holy Spirit.
In 1 Corinthians 8:6, the one God is the Father, not the the Son or the Holy Spirit.
So both of these verses says the one God is the Father, leaving out the other two persons.
So based on what they're saying, the one and only true God is the Father, not a trinity.
Example:
If three people were given the same title, but only one of them was called true, what does that tell you?
2007-12-04 06:16:08 · 25 answers · asked by VMO 4 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Jon M
It has nothing to do with math. The reasons theres flaws in the trinity is because the Father is called the only true God.. If one is true, then others aren't.
2007-12-04 06:21:16 · update #1
Jereme K
Jesus became Lord when he came to Earth, not prior.
2007-12-04 06:42:47 · update #2
Jereme K
No.
Jesus tells us hes the master worker, and he was installed in that position by God himself. So its not saying God cannot create anything without Jesus.
2007-12-04 07:44:27 · update #3
Jereme K
Proverbs 8:
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.
2007-12-04 09:22:54 · update #4
Jereme K
without Jesus nothing would have been made, because he was a worker in this creation. Again, it doesn't say that Jesus, God couldn't create anything. So if Jesus was a Master Worker (or Worksman) he was the worker of this creation, not a creator
2007-12-04 09:24:19 · update #5
Jereme K
Jesus was with God prior to anything being created for millions of years. So its understandable to use him in a recreation. If you had a son for that many years, will you use him in creating the earth? I'm sure you would.
Jesus said he cannot do anything alone, so the source of the power comes from God, not Jesus Christ. So, that in its self destroys you theory.
The Bible doesn't say the exact number of nails used, but you can be sure there has been more than one used.
Answer these three questions for me.
1 - Why did God exalt Jesus to a higher position
2 - Why did God give Jesus the authority to judge.
3 - After the 1000 year reign of Christ is over, why would the authority be given back to God?
4- God could have done all of these things himself, so why did he give these things to Jesus?
2007-12-04 10:59:25 · update #6
Jereme K
I answered your question, now you cant answer mine?
I know why, but I'm asking you why the Father let Jesus do these things.
2007-12-05 11:22:41 · update #7
Jesus, of course, was telling it from his human perspective to other humans. It says in John 1 that the world did not know or recognize him. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit. So that kinda sums up that The Holy Spirit is God's active presence. The only true God is God/his Spirit/and his Son.
1 Cor. 8:6 speaks of One God and yet it speaks of both "the Father" and Jesus. That verse also says there's one Lord, so why did everyone call The Father "Lord" in the Old Testament? Looks to me they both have the same title.
Check out these verses:
1 Cor. 8:6 "...there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
John 1:2-3 "He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
So without Jesus, nothing would be. So if God didn't have Jesus nothing would've been made? This is what the Bible is saying. How could this be? Is God limitless? No. Only if you believe Jesus wasn't divine.
EDIT: You must have skipped the last part of the verse that says "and without him was not any thing made that was made".
If God could create everything without Jesus then why didn't he? Answer that one.
EDIT 2: You still didn't answer my question: If God could create everything without Jesus then why didn't he?
Also, "When he established the heavens, I was there" -- kinda destroys the theory that he was Michael, doesn't it?
Quickly answer this question: How many nails were used in Jesus' crucifixion?
EDIT 3:
Are you singling me out because I hit a nerve? How sweet.
Please, oh Great One of Knowledge, tell me why Jehovah allowed Jesus (Michael) those things.
2007-12-04 06:20:50 · answer #1 · answered by Jereme K 3 · 1⤊ 2⤋
The father, Jehovah God, The Most High over all the earth, the Sovereign of the Universe is our One True God.
He had no beginning or end. He does not share his Godship.
Jesus had a beginning....
If Jesus and God were the same person they would have been together from the beginning yet the scriptures say he is the only begotten meaning the only thing made from God's own hands...after Jesus was created he was given the title of Michael the Archangel...Then sent to earth as Jesus or Emmanuel.
2007-12-04 13:04:34 · answer #2 · answered by debbie2243 7 · 3⤊ 0⤋
there is no scriptures that point to Jehovah and Jesus are the same....
some say John 10:30 "I and the father are one" that only explains 2 wheres the 3rd?
In Genesis the bible says gods active force or holy spirit according to KJV was moving over the earth now is 1+1+1=1
why did it say Gods active force...I tell you that people cannot make sense of this doctrine at all..have you ever said"we are one"if you and another agree on something? or the apostle Thomas who didn't believe that Jesus was resurrected therefore when he saw Jesus he said my lord and My God..have you never been excited and said My God!!!???
the trinity is a false teaching dating back to before Babylonian
rule...the Egyptians worshiped 3 gods in one and also the Babylonians did also...also many Satanic worshipers that deal with black magic do also if you see where these things come from you will see that its not true worship!!!!!you cannot see god and live!!!!!!
2007-12-04 11:53:00 · answer #3 · answered by Norman S 2 · 2⤊ 0⤋
What does the Bible say? In addition to the verses already posted, Paul said at Eph. 1:6: "one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all."
At 1 John 5:20, a verse that trinitarians misunderstand, it says: "But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting."
In this verse, who is the "true one"? As the apostle John wrote, “the true One” is Jehovah, the Father of Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, the Creator. The apostle Paul acknowledged: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.” (1 Cor. 8:6; Isaiah 42:8) Another reason that Jehovah is “the true one” referred to at 1 John 5:20 is that he is the Source of truth. The psalmist called Jehovah “the God of truth” because He is faithful in all He does and cannot lie. (Psalm 31:5; Titus 1:2) Referring to his heavenly Father, the Son said: “Your word is truth.” And regarding his own teaching, Jesus stated: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.” John 7:16; 17:17.
The trinity says that God is composed of the Father, Son, and the holy spirit. That conflicts with what Jesus said that the Father ALONE was the true God. Tha means that there is no trinity support in the Bible.
Athanasius says: "Omission is not negation, this is a logical fallacy.
"If I say my father is of the Athanasius family, does that mean that I am not, simply because I do not mention the fact? No, I am making a positive qualifying statement to the effect that my dad is part of my family. What would be a contradiction is if I said my dad was part of my family and I am not. This would constitute a contradiction."
What if I say I am of the Athanasius family and I am the ONLY one over 7 feet tall? Does that mean that others in my family might ALSO be over 7 feet just because I did not mention it? What does common sense tell you?
"Only" means "to the exclusion of others." So when Jesus said that his Father was the only true God, he was excluding himself and everybody else from being God or even a part of God.
At Matt. 24:36, Jesus said: "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but ONLY the Father." So then, besides the Father, who else in the universe knew the day and the hour? NOBODY!
Can you see how the word "only" narrows things down? When Jesus said his Father is the only true God, he meant just that. His Father is the ONLY true God.
Jerome K says: "If God could create everything without Jesus then why didn't he?
"How many nails were used in Jesus' crucifixion?"
What does that have to do with Jehovah being the only true God?
2007-12-04 06:24:30 · answer #4 · answered by LineDancer 7 · 5⤊ 0⤋
Yes, Jehovah God, the Father, is the only true God. His son, Jesus Christ repeatedly acknowledged this. (John 17:3; Matthew 24:36; John 14:28; John 20:17)
2007-12-04 21:26:56 · answer #5 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 0⤋
First of all, ACCORDING to JESUS, the only true God, is his Father. You probably know what the word ONLY means, right? So what is Jesus then? Jesus IS the SON OF GOD compared against the term "the only True God". In what sense, is Jesus saying that his Father the only true God. In the sense of the Father being the only Almighty God, the only Creator. Jesus admitted this, pls see John 5:26, John 6:67. What does the word God, & Father means and how come Jesus called the Father those terms, notice the word MY. It also doesn't mean that there are no other gods that exist. The difference with the only true God is that he is the only one that is NOT created, the rest are created (angels, humans, etc). Notice the Bible called Jehovah, God of gods. This term notably is not even used to Jesus, it is a term exclusive to Jehovah. It is not right for someone to say the the other gods do not exist or are all
false, because just like Lord of lords, the other lords exists as well.
When you also say "he is my true Friend" it doesn't mean that the other friends of yours are false. That means that your true friend is the best of them all. That's why Jesus called his Father the only true God, because the Father is best of them all. Even Jesus admitted that the Father is greater than him. Also notice that when the Bible called Jesus "Mighty God" it is in the FUTURE tense, therefore Jesus doesn't have that title before the prophecy happened
What does the word God means? According to www.dictionary.com God is “the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”
Now ask this, when Jesus called his Father, MY GOD, both while on earth and in heaven, what does he mean? Obviously, it is My Supreme Being, My Creator, etc.
Neh 9:5-6 “Rise, bless Jehovah YOUR God from time indefinite to time indefinite. And let them bless your glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise. 6 “You are Jehovah alone;….”
According to the Trinity doctrine, Jesus is Jehovah, The Holy Spirit is Jehovah and the Father is Jehovah. So now the three persons that composed God are all named Jehovah. But notice Nehemiah 9:5-6 that states that God, “you are Jehovah ALONE”. If there are three persons and all three are Jehovah, then it conflicts with Neh 9:5-6 where is states that there is only one Jehovah, that is, He is “Jehovah ALONE” NOT TWO, NOT THREE.
Isa 37:20 - 20 And now, O Jehovah our God, save us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you, O Jehovah, are [God] alone.” Notice ALONE.
Isa 63:16 - 16 For you are our Father; although Abraham himself may not have known us and Israel himself may not recognize us, you, O Jehovah, are our Father.
Isa 63 states that Jehovah is the Father, it does not say the Son nor the Holy Spirit. It also used the singular pronoun “you” & singular noun “Father” NOT FATHERS. It is noteworthy to say that Jehovah is never addressed “The Son” or “Our Son”, etc. but only the “Father”. This is in accordance to what Jesus said in John 17:1-3 when he addressed his Father, “the only true God”. Notice Isa 63 states Jehovah is “Our Father” in heaven, whom Jesus mentioned in the Lord’s prayer. The Father is the only God. That’s why 1 Cor 8:6 states “6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him”. Notice THE FATHER only.
Jesus stated “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” Who is the Father? Jesus quoted Psalms 31:5. It is obvious in that text, that Jehovah, is the Father only.
Psalms 31:5 –
5 Into your hand I entrust my spirit.
You have redeemed me, O Jehovah the God of truth.
The phrase “our Father” , a term for the heavenly Father, is not used at all to address Jesus but to the Father only.
Rom 1:7 called the Father “God our Father” not Fathers.
Rom 15:6 called “God” ALSO/EVEN the “Father” of our Lord Jesus
Eph 1:7 – called the God of our Lord Jesus, The Father of glory.
Isa 63 only used the singular noun “Father” , if there are three persons in one God, and all are “Father”, then it should have used “FATHERS” not just “Father”. Therefore there is only one person here with the title “Our Father”. Notice not “our Fathers” nor “our fathers”.
2007-12-06 05:31:47 · answer #6 · answered by trustdell1 3 · 1⤊ 0⤋
I understand the verses, but you are performing eisegesis and reading your own biases into the text, which are quite incorrect.
You state because Jesus calls the Father God yet does not mention Himself or the Holy Spirit, this "proves" Jesus isn't God. Omission is not negation, this is a logical fallacy.
If I say my father is of the Athanasius family, does that mean that I am not, simply because I do not mention the fact? No, I am making a positive qualifying statement to the effect that my dad is part of my family. What would be a contradiction is if I said my dad was part of my family and I am not. This would constitute a contradiction.
You are in much need of logical deduction and proper biblical hermeneutics. You have proved nothing at all other than that you reject the true God of the Bible. Repent and believe in the Triune Savior!
Ath
2007-12-04 06:28:23 · answer #7 · answered by athanasius was right 5 · 0⤊ 3⤋
nice question...
i think humans tend to impose our own parameters on god. we look at the trinity as "persons", even though only one aspect of the trinity (jesus) was a person. it's hard to wrap our minds around the three-in-one concept, because it is physically impossible. logic dictates that you either have three OR one...not both.
again, our linguistic limitation identify god as father, which immediately conjures up images of an older male figure. however, most biblical images of god are amorphous.
i think there's a lot to be said for what the writers of john and 1 corinthians were trying to accomplish. paul, in his first letter to the corinthians, was trying to get the religious leaders to stop practicing "cheap grace" (anti-nomianism). by proclaiming a FATHER figure, he is trying to remind these people that there is someone watching over them...and that someone is the one true god.
i don't think that the omission of jesus & spirit in these verses implies that they are not "true". jesus talks about being the way, truth, and life...and doesn't reference the spirit. that doesn't diminish the spirit's role in the trinity...he just didn't mention it.
blessings on your discernment!
2007-12-04 06:24:40 · answer #8 · answered by BigRed 2 · 0⤊ 1⤋
I don't believe in the trinity I believe God is ONE!
You'll be all day finding contraditions! See first of all Their is only on true God whom we are to worsip ALONE the Creator! But some how they got in there heads to say you can only worship God by going through Jesus which is crazy cause God says worship me for I am a jealous God the one of the Commandments!
Exodus 20
2. "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3. "You shall have no other gods before me.
4. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Revelation 19:10 NIV
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Mark 10:18 NIV
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
But then as you go on all that changes.
Question: All the Prophets and Messengers and people who were under there teachings worshipped non but the Creator they all went to God for help but not any more you all pray to Jesus I must have missed something did God change? and if so why didn't I get the memo?
One more thing God is not everywhere because if He's everywhere than He's in everything and that is not true He's above His throne!
2007-12-04 06:46:48 · answer #9 · answered by YasMeen01 2 · 0⤊ 2⤋
In many religions, the supreme God is given the title and attributions of Father. In many forms of polytheism, the highest god has been conceived as a "father of gods and of men". In the Israelite religion and modern Judaism, Yahweh is called Father because he is the creator, law-giver, and protector. In Christianity, God is called father for the same reasons, but especially because of the mystery of the Father-Son relationship revealed by Jesus Christ. In general, the name of Father applied to deity signifies that he is the origin of what is subject to him, a supreme and powerful authority, a patriarch, and protector.
2007-12-04 06:21:55 · answer #10 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 2⤋