Tough Israeli checkpoints for Palestinians?

Question

Several people ask why Palestinians are restricted from travelling in Israel.
Could what's listed below be why?

Please note: I have listed ONLY civilian deaths and not even all of those.

2007

May 27 - Oshri Oz, aged 36, killed when a Kassam Rocket landed on his car in Sderot. Hamas claimed responsibility.

May 21 - 32 year old Shirel Friedman, of Sderot, killed when a Kassam rocket hit her car near town shopping centre.

Nov 19 - 29 year old Ido Zoldan, killed by gunshots when terrorists fired from a passing car. Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility 'as act of protest against the peace conference in Annapolis'.

Feb 25 - body of Erez Levanon, aged 42, killed by multiple stabbings, found north of Halhul. Several groups claimed responsibility.

Jan 29 - 3 people killed in suicide bombing in bakery in Eilat. Victims were: Emi Haim Elmaliah - aged 32. Michael Ben Sa'adon, aged 27, and Israel Zamalloa, aged 26.
ISLAMIC JIHAD took responsibility.

2006

Yaakov Yaakobov, aged 43, of Sderot, died after day long battle by doctors to save him, after he was hit by Kassam rocket fired by Palestinian terrorists in Gaza.

Nov 15 - Fatima Slutsker, 57, of Sderot, killed by Kassam rocket fired into the town by Palestinian terrorists in Gaza.

August 10 - 24 year old Italian Angelo Frammartino, stabbed to death by Arab knifeman while walking in Jerusalem.

July 27 - Burnt body of Dr Daniel Yaakobi, aged 59, doctor, found in trunk of his car near Qalqilya. Fatah al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade claimed responsibility.

June 25 - 18 year old student Eliyahu Asheri, kidnapped by terrorists from the Popular Resistnace Committees while hitchiking.

EDIT DANN - they are often listed, that's why I'm trying to show there is suffering all round. And when Palestinians die it's because they are carrying out these attacks. The Israelis dying are CIVILIANS.

June 11 - Marwan Abed Shweika, 35, killed and two other Israeli Arabs wounded in a shooting attack in Jerusalem.

April 17 - ELEVEN people killed and over 60 wounded in suicide bombing during Passover holiday, at Rosh Ha'ir restaurant. ISLAMIC JIHAD claimed responsibility. Youngest victim: 16 year old Daniel Wultz

March 30 - Suicide bomber disguised himself as an Orthodox yeshiva student = detonated his bomb in a car at Kedumim. Killed: Rafi Halevy, 63, and his wife Helena, 58.

March 1 - 48 year old Eldar Abir, killed when two Palestinians shot him at point blank rage at gas station near Migdalim. Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade took responsbility.

BRANDON - these are only a tiny number of the CIVILIANS killed by Palestinian terrorists.

Feb 5 - Kinneret Ben Shalom Hajbi, 58: stabbed to death by Palestinian terrorist while travelling on number 51 taxi service in Tel Aviv. Five passengers also hurt.

Dec 16: Yosef Shok, aged 35, killed in shooting attack while driving home. Islamic Jihad and Fatah al-Aqsa claimed joint responsibility.

SHANTI - just trying to show people that Israelis are suffering terribly also. If I don't put names and details, they will claim it is not true as no info etc.

Hi 'h' - I realise, I truly do, that for those Palestinians who genuinely want peace, it must be horrible with the checkpoints etc. But as 'moneymaker' says, if only they would somehow get rid of the terrorists among them, the Israelis would not have to take such precautions. I have 34 sheets filled with details of the murders of Israeli civilians - and just as many sheets full of deaths of young Israeli soldiers. Israelis and peace loving Palestinians DO have a big thing in common - they all want the Palestinian terrorists to stop! I will indeed look at your links - thank you :)

'h' - I just want to address what you say about Palestinian patients, and students being unable to move freely. I think it's because there have been cases, one recently, where a terrorist actually disguised himself as an orthodox Jew, managed to get through and then detonated his bomb, killing people. You can appreciate that the Israeli policy has to be: take no chances. Also, the Israelis don't 'take revenge'. They are just taking precautions.

MIMI - firstly, it is not for me to list the Palestinian deaths, when there are so many other people already doing that. Secondly, I know precisely what the rockets do, I spent two hours today reading up about the Israelis killed by these rockets. As for the people needing health care - may I remind you that everyone told Israel to leave Gaza, so she did! Yet still she is the one who must provide health care for the people now launching rockets??? Why are Egypt and Lebanon and Jordan not being asked to help with healthcare???

You seem to want it all: to be able to deny Israel's right to exist, to slander her people left, right and centre, to justify terrorism against her AND THEN to cry when Israel places the safety of her citizens ABOVE the wellbeing of the Palestinians!!! It's madness.

MIMI - Israel don't 'occupy' Gaza, they are not there, it's run by Hamas - remember? Yet still from Gaza the rockets rain down on Sderot.

And actually, the opposite of what you say is true. Israel WAS forced to defend herself when SEVEN Arab armies attacked her in 1948. That's how she got the extra land, when she was defending herself and trying to push back her attackers. At least have the decency not to twist history.

WORLDLUV - the Palestinian deaths have been listed several times, most recently today, in the Politics section. As for your assertion about the media, I can only speak for where I live, in the UK. The reason I was shocked to read of these Israeli deaths is because most of them were NEVER reported on TV here. And believe me, I would have remembered.
Have you ever lived in Israel itself? Have you ever seen the body of a teenaged girl that has been stabbed to death by Palestinian terrorists? Spoken to her mother? No? Then don't you start lecturing Israel about her security needs and what she 'should' be doing. Israel's number one duty is the same as ALL other countries: to protect her citizens. Name me ONE nation on earth that would put up with these deaths and NOT take the same security measures. Oh, and let's not forget, as these rockets keep falling on Sderot, the Israelis are giving Gaza FREE water, fuel, electricity.

WORLDLUV - the Palestinian deaths have been listed several times, most recently today, in the Politics section. As for your assertion about the media, I can only speak for where I live, in the UK. The reason I was shocked to read of these Israeli deaths is because most of them were NEVER reported on TV here. And believe me, I would have remembered.
Have you ever lived in Israel itself? Have you ever seen the body of a teenaged girl that has been stabbed to death by Palestinian terrorists? Spoken to her mother? No? Then don't you start lecturing Israel about her security needs and what she 'should' be doing. Israel's number one duty is the same as ALL other countries: to protect her citizens. Name me ONE nation on earth that would put up with these deaths and NOT take the same security measures. Oh, and let's not forget, as these rockets keep falling on Sderot, the Israelis are giving Gaza FREE water, fuel, electricity.

WORLDLUV - it's the other way round. The Palestinians are restricted because of terrorism, not the reverse. Even before Israel was created, back in the 1920s, the Palestinian Arabs formed mobs and attacked Jews living there. And if it's purely because they are now 'oppressed' - why are they not also attacking Lebanon and Egypt where they are kept in terrible camps? Israel gave back Gaza as asked - why didn't it decrease violence?

WORLDLUV - yes, I can indeed cite what happened to the Jews at the hands of Arab mobs back in the 1920s in Hebron and Jerusalem. Did you not know that the Jews had to flee Hebron completely because of the violence?

Tomorrow I will post something specifically about this - that OK? I think it deserves a post of its' own. You are right in that prior to the events I refer to, the Jews and Arabs DID live very peacefully together, especially in Hebron! So if we've all done it once, let's hope we can do it again :)
Look out for my post, it will be up in the afternoon.

M.I. - couldn't you come up with anything better than just calling me 'racist'? Anyone who has seen more of my posts knows what utter drivel that is. It's amazing that whenever someone defends Israel or merely, as I have done, notes the Israeli victims, they are suddenly 'racist' BUT when someone does the same for the Palestinians, they are totally justified. Double standard.
I have stated time and again that ALL death is terrible, whether it be Israeli OR Palestinian. Also I have stated over and over that I wish the Palestinians to get their own state, and that they have suffered terribly - though not at the hands of Israel.
Do I support Israel? Yes, of course. Does that make me racist? Of course not! Nice try to discredit me though - I think people here are too smart to fall for that old rubbish, though.

Answer 1

Dear Paperback,

I do understand your point of view and from this these check points might be necessary. These check points even would not be such a big issue if not many people (Palestinias) would be mistreated and also killed. Instead of posting a list, here are some links:

http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=467
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18597-2004Nov28?language=printer
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5820.shtml

These links does not ONLY include deaths of Palestinan civilians. Also babies born at the checkpoints and the miscarriages women had because they could not cross on time. Also included are patients not getting medical car on time and students missing exams. I even do not want to start of the daily mistreatment of Palistinians by the Israeli army and that hardly never any soldier can be made responsible for this wrongdoing.

Like I said before, I do understand your frustration if I put myself in your shoes, but the people who got killed by Islamic Extremists are no reason to take revenge on the ordinary Palestinian civilian. If Israelis think they have to check people for security reasons, fine - but the Israeli Army will not ease the conflict by the way they act.

You can read here in this forum Jews/Israelis getting along just fine with each other. I also know these from talking to Palestinians living in Israel. It's the Politician's and Extreminits fault that things mentioned by you and me happen. Wish for both of us and all other that it would be different.

Take care!

Answer 2

The answer mainly is get the settlers out of the West Bank and East jeursalem then you can build as big a wall as you want on the "border" once you get the soldiers and settlers out.

Otherwise brase yourselves more is on the way.

So when there is a Qassam rocket intering israel or a sucide bombings Israels reaction is to build more houses for settlers and make the Palestinians fate more uncertain?

I have a contact on my list who lives in the west bank his house is under demolotion threat from an encroaching settlement.

Historically the house was his but the property is no longer (cause of settlers) and anyways all the jewsih settlers its "their land anyway"?

Why let those things get in you guyses way?

Bulldoze all of dem bitches!

Occupying and expanding the occupation is not the way to reduce hatred towards israel and Israelies.

Israel still has alot of people it took into its prisons to account for thousands of Palestinians and 10 000 or so lebanese taken from the occupation of southern Leb.

Answer 3

It's obvious that Paperback is one of those Israeli supporters who thinks its if it's a crime at all it's a much lesser one for Israelis to kill innocent Palestinians. There's lots of evidence from human rights groups such as btselem that that's exactly the policy of the Israeli occupation forces - settlers frequently kill innocent Palestinians with impunity, Israeli settlers attack farmers and schoolchildren while the Israeli army stands idly watching. This isn't new, the report below is from 1994, but every year since Israel was founded shows far more deaths of innocent Palestinians and Arabs killed by Israelis than vice versa.

By her light only Israeli deaths merit "checkpoints." In fact the checkpoints and closures have been in place since well before the Palestinians took up large-scale violence against the occupiers. Besides, if attacks on innocent people were the real reason to put up the checkpoints (in another people's country, stopping those people from getting to work, schools, medical care or accessing their farmland), no Israeli would be able to move from one side of the street to another.

I guess it's a facet of racism that only allows her to notice attacks on Israelis. Racists tend to be conveniently blind to facts. Yes, the attacks on Israelis are atrocities, but what about Israeli border guards tying a man to his mule and beating it until it dragged him to death? What about Israeli soldiers bulldozing homes with the people inside? Yet, Paperback gives this the OK.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/199403_Law_Enforcement.asp
http://www.counterpunch.org/levy12272005.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0206-05.htm

Edit: and while you're mis-representing Israeli history and ignoring Zionist pre-meditated ethnic cleansing also leave out the Zionist use of biological weapons during Israel's so-called war of indpendence http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1750.htm

Answer 4

There is a myth that the Israelis are free from blame in this situation. They are not. There is the fact that the Israelis used terror in the first place to gain independence from the UK. The Stern Gang and Irgun used exactly the same tactics as does Hamas and Al-Qaeda.

Moreover the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians has not helped either rather it has exacerbated the situation profoundly.

Both sides share blame, neither side is pure and lily-white, both sides need to commit to peace.

Answer 5

Sorry I have to correct you;

''Several people ask why Palestinians are restricted from travelling in Israel. ''

No No hun, they're restricted from travelling in PALESTINE (West Bank and Gaza.)- Yes Gaza too, when they are allowed to travel freely in and out of Gaza (at least for the HOLY Pilgrimage) then you can come and say that the Palestinians control Gaza. Next.

p.s. Here, dann :

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

oh and some more,

collective punishment (war crime) -- lmao @ ''free water, fuel, electricity'':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-j-0vE_RLQ


Right paperback, and have YOU ever seen the bloodied bodIES of a mother, a father, and two of their children killed by ISRAELI TERRORISTS, while they were trying to enjoy a day at the beach ? Spoken to the only survivor, a 10 year old girl? No? Then don't you start lecturing us about Israel and ''her security needs''.

http://judicial-inc.biz/Gaza_video_beach.htm

edit: pb, I honestly cannot understand why you refuse to aknowledge that israel has some policies that do not help in security, but only create more hatred and fear between the Palestinians. Who says that if you support your country you must agree with EVERYTHING it does ??? If that was the case then probably 99% of Americans/Canadians/Brits would fail the test. No matter how much proof you see, no matter how many palestinians killed, no matter how many videos/photos/articles you see you STILL say that ''Palestinians have suffered terribly - though not at the hands of Israel.'' You know what, YES the palestinians do suffer in Lebanon and some other diaspora countries, but the difference with israeli aggression is that THEY SUFFER IN THEIR OWN HOMES AND ON THEIR OWN LAND, and that makes all the difference.

Answer 6

I understand why men are restricted but why are women also restricted. A lot of women had to give birth on check points. Are those women going to bomb themselves as well?
And you are talking about quassam rockets even if the palestinians are not restricted do you think the rockets would not be restricted as well. They can sit in their houses and launch the rockets at the Israelis. Rockets FLY over the check points if you haven't heard of that yet.
Also what about those sick people who are almost dying and they are restricted from recieving health care. Are those also going to bomb themselves???

And as somebody said you are listing the Israeli deaths why don't you list the palestinian deaths as well?

I wish I could write more but I have so many exams and I have to go study now. I may not even be able to see any comment you add.
Peace


Not all the Palestinians are terrorists and nobody forced the Israelis to occupy other people's land. What do they expect, to occupy people's land and expect them to be kind and nice to them?

Peace


awww whether they occupied it when they where defending themselved or attacking others, they occupied it. The UN gave them only half the country and they occupied the other half. They have no right to own an inch of that other half.
Happy Hanukkah

Answer 7

Is there any chance that you are an incarnation of Joseph Goebbals..

Paying of his bad Karma as a slave to Israel.

Answer 8

Paperback calls her self a peace activist. Can you imagine the the anti-peace activist?

Answer 9

There's no doubt that innocent civilians have been killed on both sides of this conflict. You've listed some Israeli deaths and said that Palestinian deaths are listed "elsewhere" - where?? The world hears more about the Israeli deaths and many do not realize the extent of the Palestinian deaths.

165 Israelis were killed by Palestinians and at least 549 Palestinians were killed by Israelis during the first year of the current uprising. These numbers do not include Palestinians civilians who died as a result of inability to reach medical care due to Israeli road closures, curfews, etc. The majority of those killed among both populations were civilians.

According to reports - see http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html - In its first year of coverage, we found that ABC reported on 305 Israeli deaths and 327 Palestinian deaths – 185% of Israeli deaths and 60% of Palestinian deaths.

CBS reported on 334 Israeli deaths and 296 Palestinian deaths – 202% of Israeli deaths and 54% of Palestinian deaths.

NBC reported on 227 Israeli deaths and 190 Palestinian deaths – 138% of Israeli deaths and 35% of Palestinian deaths.

In 2004, when 8 Israeli children and 176 Palestinian children were killed – a ratio of 1 to 22 – New York Times headlines and lead paragraphs reported on Israeli children’s deaths at a rate almost seven times greater than Palestinian children’s deaths. (http://www.counterpunch.org/weir04252005.html )

These hard facts make me wonder who needs to be protected from whom? Many Israeli Jews point to the suicide bombers and say they need security. Yes, I agree. Everyone should be protected from such terrorists. This begs the question, why are there suicide bombers?

Are these checkpoints for security? Sometimes yes. Many times no. I have witnessed people being harassed at checkpoints and held for hours waiting for no reason, except that the IDF soldier has control and is on a power trip. When foreigners are at these checkpoints watching, it's amazing how many cases are suddenly "cleared up" and people are allowed through.

You cannot tell me that an older gentleman I met who was forced to wait for hours, then kiss the boots of a soldier, then take off one of his own shoes and have it thrown into the valley below before passing is for security. Nor can you tell me it's security for the gentleman required to get on all fours and bark like a dog first. These are not isolated cases.

I beg you to go deep into the West Bank and simply watch a checkpoint - especially the ones that pop up out of nowhere for a few hours, then quickly vanish.

I do believe in security, but I do not believe in humiliation, oppression, and harassment. Nor do I believe in withholding medical treatment, or forcing women to give births at checkpoints. This is not security.

If you want an end to this conflict, force your own government to take steps to ensure that what they are doing is security, and only security. And also ensure that they are not exacerbating situations and forcing people into such terrible conditions that they have no hope and are desperate enough to strap on bombs. Support the thousands of IDF soldiers who have admitted that what they are doing is wrong and not just for security - they have refused to serve in Palestine and spent time in jail. They are the ones that are truly seeking peace and justice and not those who just debate, debate, debate, debate without knowing (or admitting) to all the facts and without doing something positive and constructive to seek peace.

"It isn't enough to talk about peace. One must believe in it. And it isn't enough to believe in it. One must work at it." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Paperback - I'm agreeing with you that people need to be protected and security is important. What I'm getting at is that a lot of what Israel is doing is creating insecurity, not security! To have security one must look at the root cause of why there are terrorists, bombings, killings, etc. If you get at the cause, then that can be addressed and there will be no need for big walls, checkpoints, etc. The cause here is that Palestinians have been oppressed and mistreated. They are looking for their rights to be respected, just as Jewish rights should be upheld.

Paperback - The important time is the present and what is happening right now is that the exorbitant restrictions on the Palestinians are creating frustration, anger, and hopelessness so it is understandable (not acceptable, but understandable) why some resort to violent extremes. There is a big misconception about Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and how the Palestinians live now in that small area. Way too much to cover here, and there are many websites to read about it. Here are a couple and please read these links. This one was reported in Haaretz in August 2007 - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/757768.html and this one from the Washington Bureau in October 2007 - http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/20921.html

Also, Israel cutting the power to Gaza is illegal, according to the UN - http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/103007N.shtml

You said "back in the 1920s, the Palestinian Arabs formed mobs and attacked Jews living there". That's surprising to me because my understanding is that Arabs and Jews got along very well. Can you provide evidence of this? As far as why Palestinians haven't attacked places like Lebanon, I honestly don't know. I'm just thankful that they haven't!

Answer 10

there going through a political war now and have been on the being of becoming a civil war for quite some time now.

those deaths are only a small reason why there restricting them.