Was Jesus and Paul wrong for called the Father the only true God?

Question

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Corinthians 8:4,6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

If they are calling the Father the only true God, then its obvious that Jesus did not consider himself a true God.

Comment on THESE scriptures please.

Typo: for calling*

Fish <><

First, 2 Cor. 13:14 does not say there is a trinity. Second, you didn't answer why his FATHER was called the only true God.

Cuchlain

I would like Trinitarians to comment on these scriptures because they always dodge it. They never comment on these scriptures directly. Thats something you just did. How? You stated that Paul was making it clear that there only one True God, and that is true. But you didn't answer why that only the FATHER was called the only true God.

I'll say it again.. the Father was called the only true God.

Also, as for John 1:1, it was not translated to Word was God first, it was translated to "Word was a god (or a divine being)" first.

No Trinitarians can explain why the Father was called the only true God?

Cuchlain

The Bible doesn't state that Jesus was in the flesh, nor does it truly say Jesus is God. Based on the Coptic Translation of John 1:1, which was translated in 300AD, it does not support the idea of Jesus being God.

I don't misunderstand the concept of the trinity, because I'm finding many contradictions in scriptures, such as these two above.

I said twice that you're right about what Paul said. But what you're not understanding is that he does not call the only true God the Father Son and Holy Spirit, it only states that its the Father. Thats what you're ignoring. You also didn't comment on what Jesus said in his prayer.

If Jesus and Paul state the Father is the one and True God, then that leaves out the other two persons being God.

Actually it does conflict - lol. If one is true and the other two aren't then its obviously not part of the "true God"

Based on your reasoning, Paul and Jesus was wrong.

RidiculousQstioner w/Vengeance

You're not getting whats being said. Jesus calls his Father the only true God, making him God. Same goes for what Paul said.

Misquoted verse?

Romans 9:5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

No, its not Christ who is over all, its God alone.

If Jesus was over all, then God would have NOT exalted him to a higher position.

Philippians 2:8,9
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Did Jesus always have authority? No, based on the scriptures, God gave it to him.

NINA

LOL - you gave a response by dodging the verse.

First of all, Jesus was properly given the title "Lord" when he became the Messiah. Jehovah God was the only lord at the time, prior to Jesus human existence. So your logic does not add up here, and its also false reasoning.

Oh yeah, nice job pasting the response from carm

Again, what you and others are saying is that these scriptures are inaccurate..

We don't call Jehovah Lord, only the Son. So saying we called the Father "Lord Jehovah" is false. We do say "Our Lord Jesus Christ" though.

Like I said before, Jesus became the only Lord when he came to earth, because he is our leader and master.. Was Jesus a leader prior to his pre-human form? No, because he was not exalted in his prehuman form.

Is he the only God or not?

NINA

The reason why I'm having a problem with your answer is because you're basically saying the scriptures are inaccurate.

You stated that he cannot be the only true God and that Jesus cannot be the true lord was because others were called Lord and God. That right there is false reasoning and false logic, based on the face that Jesus became lord when he came to Earth.

Just like you did before, you came up with another false logic.

The Trinity states that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are two different beings but one God and they all properly hold the name Jehovah.

Now, I showed you a scripture where that only one God was only the Father, not the Son or the Holy Spirit.

Its funny how you cannot say the Father is the only true God but you can only say Jehovah is the only true God because based on your belief, Jehovah is the trinity.

So, I'll ask the SAME question again..

Was Jesus and Paul right for calling the Father the only God?

Key Word: Father.

Take a look at this, because some of you aren't really answering the question.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071204111608AAunIc7&pa=FYd1D2bwHTHwLbxhHe88R3QVasOpR6NO_qIOHLeZ9H0XhA--&paid=asked&msgr_status=

Answer 1

No.

The following Hebrew Scriptures explicitly use the Tetragrammaton ("YHWH" which translates into English as "Jehovah") to refer to the One who assures the throne of David:

(Psalm 132:11) Jehovah has sworn to David, Truly he will not draw back from it: “Of the fruitage of your belly I shall set on your throne.

(Isaiah 9:7) Upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.


Centuries later, the Gospels refer to those earlier Scriptures to demonstrate that Jesus' heavenly Father is the same person as was earlier referred to explicitly as "YHWH" (which translates into "Jehovah" in English).

(Luke 1:31-32) you are to call his name Jesus. This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father

Learn more:
http://watchtower.co.uk/e/na/index.htm?article=diagram_04.htm

Answer 2

They were not wrong since the "true God" consists of three distinct beings. There were three in the beginning before everything was created. Jehovah, Holy Spirit, The Word. John later reveals that this "Word" was Jesus. Everything was created through, by, and with Jesus.

You want to throw John 17:3 out with the word "only"? How about this verse:

John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father."

John 1:18 goes on to say "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Is this a contradiction? No. Both of these verses say 1) Jesus is the One and Only and 2) Jehovah is the One and Only. This "One and Only" called "God" is sitting at the Father's side. Do you actually think that God is sitting down? In a chair? No. You should understand what this means.

The Father is Jehovah, Jesus (The Word) is the Son when he is born as a human. But before Jesus was born they were one and only, both the same.

Answer 3

Yes, Jesus said that ONLY the FATHER is God:

"Jesus...said, "FATHER,...this is eternal life, that they may know you, the ONLY true God.'" (John 17:1-3) NRSV

Additionally related is the extremely significant fact that NOWHERE in the Bible can the phrases "God the Son" or "God, the Holy Spirit" be found.

Yet the Father is CLEARLY, directly, and indisputably called "GOD, THE FATHER," many, many times, (Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
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Also,

Someone mentioned that "in 2 Cor. 13:14, the trinity does exist in Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit."

Let's analyze this scripture:

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." - ASV.

Does this verse REALLY say that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are three persons who constitute the one Most High God? Doesn't it say, instead, that the Lord Jesus Christ is one individual, the holy spirit is another individual (whether a person or a thing), and that GOD is another different individual?

Does it say Jesus is God? Does it say the holy spirit is God? No, it treats God AS SOMEONE ENTIRELY SEPERATE FROM THOSE TWO!

For much more on 2 Cor. 13:14, see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions_and_answers_archives/message/169

And as for John 1:1, this scripture does call Jesus A god, but NOT "the only true God". In fact, John 1:1 shows how Jesus is NOT God:

In many Bibles, the first part of Jn 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word,"
The word "beginning" as used in Jn 1:1 indicates that the Word BEGAN at this time. Jehovah God, the Father alone has always existed. Therefore, the word "beginning" cannot be applied to Him, but only to His creations.

The second part of Jn 1:1 says,"...and the Word was with God,"

The word "with" as is used in Jn 1:1 indicates that the Word was near or by God at this time. God is phrased as a SEPERATE PERSON from the Word in Jn 1:1.

For much more on John 1:1, see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions_and_answers_archives/message/149

To view dozens of Trinitarian, so-called 'proof-texts' (John 1:1; Isa. 9:6; John 10:30; John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Gen. 1:26; etc.) and examine how these are incorrect, see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/message/973

Answer 4

In both circumstances, they are commenting on the unity of God rather than suggesting that God the Father is the only form of God.

In John 17, this can be demonstrated in showing that the point of the Gospel of John was to prove Jesus Christ was also God; John 1:1 is an indisputable proof of this.

As for Paul, Paul is stating that the false God's of the pagan world are not real; only God is real. Again, it can be demonstrated Paul is not denying the deity of Christ by showing that in other places Paul believed Jesus Christ to be God
1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

*****

I would add that the caveat you suggest of commenting on these scriptures only suggests you are aware that other passages make it clear that Jesus is God..... is this the case?

******
additional comment - I received your private message, lets post it here instead.

If I were to say "the Bible says that "there is no God"", is this a true statement? (Prov 14:1) This is much like your point here, you are intentioanlly ignoring that the greater context of scripture, which overwhelming states that Jesus is God in the flesh. As I have already stated, that is the purpose of the Gospel of John

Both Christ and Paul are affirming the absence of other gods in stating that God the Father is the only true God; per the context, it cannot be that they are sayin the Father is the only God of the son and the Spirit, but the only God of creation.

Finally, you also misunderstand the concept of tri-unity. With such God the Father, Son and Spirit can each state that there is only one God and be correct. There is only one God


*****

One more comment:

I could handle this assertion the way some handle John 1:1


1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there are two other God but one.

However, I do not need to. Stating God the Father is the one true God does not conflict with saying God is three persons in one.

Answer 5

At John 17:3, the word "only" means "to the exclusion of others." So, Jesus was excluding everyone, including himself from being the true God along with the Father.

It all makes sense that the Father is the true God. Consider:

Who did Jesus say we should pray to? The Father? (Matt. 6:9)

Who did Jesus say was looking for TRUE worshipers to worship him? The Father. (John 4:23)

Who did Jesus say was greater than he was? The Father. (John 14:28)

Who did Jesus say was the only one to know the day of judgement? The Father. (Matt. 24:36)

Whose will did Jesus say we should be doing in order to get saved? The Father. (Matt. 7:21)

Who did Jesus say gave him the authority to judge? The Father. (John 5:26)

Who did Jesus say sent him to earth? The Father. (John 5:37)

These verses add up to show that the Father ALONE is the true God, NOT the trinity.

"Stating God the Father is the one true God does not conflict with saying God is three persons in one."

Cuchlain, does that make sense to you? If the Father ALONE is God, how can he ALSO be the Son and the holy spirit?

"God the Father, Son and Spirit can each state that there is only one God and be correct. There is only one God."

If what you say is true, how do you explain 1 Tim. 2:5, which says: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus"? How could Jesus be the mediator BETWEEN God and men if he was God?

Answer 6

John 17:3 "we might know the only true God AND Jesus Christ. Why should we know "BOTH" of them? If we should know God is the "only true God" (which he is) why should we know Jesus as well? Why not just know God? Can you answer that?

1 Cor. 8:4,6 -- That's true. There is one God. We don't claim more than one. Get your facts straight and stop putting words in our mouth. If we claim there's one God then believe that. We believe in one God and one God only.

Funny how verse six says one God then explains 1) the Father and 2) Jesus. Would you like to compare this verse with Romans 9:5? Let's see...

"To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."

Comment on THIS scripture.

RESPONSE:
"Who is over all" is the keyword here. What was the verse we were comparing this to? Oh yeah, that's right. The verse that says "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him..."

NORMAN S:
Jesus became HUMAN. God is Jesus as a HUMAN. Humans speak to God. When he speaks about his Father he's speaking about the part of him he's no longer with. The "only true God" consists of three people. Since its the same true God in Jesus. Who is the Holy Spirit? Oh yeah, that's right... that's God's active working Spirit. He's not an angel. He's not a human. Who is he?

Answer 7

My brother, I am afraid that this debate is fruitless. I have had it many times in the ministry. No matter how much scriptural logic you apply, most trinitarians will always come back to "Yes but God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are still really one person" It is as the Bible states at 2Corinthians 4:4.

Answer 8

John 17:3. JWs use this to deny Jesus' deity but if Jesus' reference to the Father as "the only true God' were meant to exclude the Son from deity, then the same principle of interpretation would have to apply to Jude 4, where Jesus Christ is called "our only Owner and Lord ( NWT ). This would have to exclude Father from the Lordship and Ownership. Yet, JWs speak of the Father as "the Lord Jehovah", even though Jude 4 calls Jesus our "only" Lord. And the Holy Spirit is called "Lord" at 2 Cor 3:17. Obviously, then, neither use of the word only is exclusive with reference to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus being called our "only" Lord does not rule out the Lordship of the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Father's being called the "only" true God does not exclude the Son and the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 8:4, 6
"There is but one God" says JW in applying this verse, " and who is he? The Father!" However, there is a flaw in this line of reasoning.Do not stop there. How about the rest of the verse? There is but one Lord, and who is he? Jesus Christ!

I understand JWs' reluctance to say this because they always speak of Jehovah as "Lord", am I right? You cannot have one without the other, or can you? It is very convenient to exclude Jesus from being God, but you cannot do it without excluding Father from being Lord in the second half...or can you?

The fact is that the Scripture uses terms God and Lord virtualy interchangeably. The varous false gods are called both "gods" and "lords". The Father is called both Lord and God, and the Son is referred by both terms.

The Apostle Thomas addressed Jesus as "My Lord and my God" ( John 20:28 )

The Watchtower leaders have falsely taught you to see in 1 Cor 8:6 contrast that does not exist.

One thing you need to understand. I am not here to win an argument. I am sincerelly concerned about your eternal destiny. You do not make it to the heaven with your deeds!

Edit: I do not know how much cleared you want me to explain this to you since you insist that I answer you more than I have already answered.

Answer: No, Jesus and Paul were not wrong when they said that Jehovah is one true God. And why:There is no other gods than Jehovah. You need to understand that Jesus is the same God Jehovah as Abraham and Moses had. While here Jesus was God in human form like it was foretold in the OT.

Trinity is not serving three different gods. Jesus is the Word that became flesh ( John 1:14 ). But of course you do not believe that because you believe Jesus is " a god". If there is one true God, then does saying Jesus is "a god" make Jesus a false God?

When Jesus was here He was the perfect example for us and the perfect teacher .He is the Truth and the Way and the Life. He taught us how to have a personal relationshp with God, including how to pray to Him.

Answer 9

Jesus said to the woman at the well that he was the Christ. In the scriptures that is Emanuel, God with us. He also said to the Pharisees, "Before Abraham was, I Am". The same "I AM" of which Moses told the elders of Israel who sent him. Now Jesus was made lower than the angels, taking human form in order to teach, lead an example and be the final sacrifice. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Some here, including Nina, try to tell you the truth but you split theological hairs to win an argument. You do not show any comprehension of the verses you quote. You should go learn of God and stop showing your ignorance.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Holy_Spirit/holy_spirit.html

Answer 10

Jesus himself said "this means Everlasting Life....taking in knowledge of you the only true God and the one you sent forth Jesus Christ"(John 17:3)why would Jesus pray about himself in a 3rd person and even say You the only true god unless he was talking about Jehovah

Answer 11

In the Thomas gospels verse 44 Jesus said "Whoever curses the father will be forgiven, and who ever curses the son will be forgiven, but who ever curses the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven! Sounds like the only true " god " is the holy spirit/creator. The romans created the so called holy trinity, they also created the pope/emperor of the church, and they gave him his claim to be the Trinity's Representative on earth, sounds like man created god.