Fellow Jews: Please respond to this multi-part question answering each with Torah rationale to support?

Question

Earlier today I asked "Torah observant messianics" to explain how these beliefs were Torah observant USING TORAH alone. Now I ask YOU..using TORAH ALONE to explain why those beliefs are incompatible with Torah. I will not accept answers that insult or use anything other than Torah. I am giving the SAME criteria to be FAIR. Eight hours passed and no "messianics" replied with Torah rationale for each point. I will have to post the rest of the question in additional details part 2. Now, explain where Torah forbids their statement of belief indicating to:
1) Rely on any entity other than God for atonement OR believe that the messiah would be God in human form.
2) Pray to or through any other entity before God (echad means ONE, not "compound unity" which is yachad)
3) ascribe to a text that demonizes Judaism, & states the eternal covenant is now invalidated and replaced
I will have to continue with 4, 5, & 6 in an additional detail number 2.

4) consider the Passover memorial sacrifice to be a sin sacrifice( tell what the Paschal lamb represented itself as well as why I was used)
5) consider human blood and human sacrifice to be a medium for atonement
6) that atonement is ONLY dependent on faith and not on how one lives
show using Torah why those things are incompatible..and ONLY using Torah please.
While it is acceptable to just refer to book and verse I want it noted that the context must support your use. I am NOT looking for any kind of cherry picking at all. I'm shaking the tree to get you to see all the fruit.
Shalom

Xtheurga..I have here what I posted on the other question..the same six things. Those are statements of beliefs of "messianics"and I am asking for the Torah places to show those beliefs are not Torah observant as they claim. To the other respondent..the ONLY reason I ask for Torah ONLY is because the messianics claim that corrupted rabbinic opinion doesn't support Jewish belief and use the claim that it is Torah and Jesus teaching Torah that they follow. So I simply called them on it..to do what they expect Jews to do....if it is Torah observant..it will be found IN Torah and Torah won't negate it, right? So I was trying to be fair. I asked them to explain and now I'm asking Jews to explain using the same Texts in as straighforward a manner as possible.

rosends you're doing fine, except for the purposes of this question and for my stated reasons..Torah is all I need. I know you know more..if you know this much :) Thanks!

TO TRY TO BE CLEAR: HERE I WANT JEWISH PEOPLE TO SHOW HOW THE SIX STATEMENTS about beliefs expressed on the Jews for Jesus site and the Messianic Alliance site are NOT Torah observant and show passages in Torah to support each claim. I hope that's clear..I am really trying to be as plainspoken as I can. Sorry.

No..the respondent above you answered many of them with Torah quite well. I know of many others who CAN answer all of them if they see the q and are around..and I have Torah answers for all of them. I was hasty before and arrogant to assume that it should happen as fast as I wanted last time, that's all.

did the thumbs down fairy find this place so soon? sheesh

I do not claim to be Torah observant. I can answer with Torah rationale. I am not looking for only observant Jews to respond, but any Jew who knows the answers. Shalom

Sheynein, my post is as much for the average Christian reader to learn how both religion's doctrines are being abused because they're being presented that this is a schism WITHIN Judaism when it is clear that it is an assault ON Judaism by twisting two established religions in order to convert Jews. Many Christians also do not realize that it is really a small percentage of actual Jews who claim this belief, but a majority of Protestant and Evangelic Christians who have embraced this; Christians who claim to love Israel and Torah . If they genuinely love Torah pehraps this will inspire them to learn how misappropriating very deeply spiritual and significant aspects of it is painful to those they claim to love, Jews, the nation Israel.
Also, thus far, no one has mentioned one thing..a very important reason that a lamb was used at Passover, and had nothing to do with sin. It was a two-fold reason, but both reasons are important to the story for the purpose of the Exodus.

I'm having a hard time deciding on a winner here..because there is one important point I'd hoped to read no one has gotten yet. And that is why is so absurd from a Torah point of view to compare a "sin" sacrifice of Jesus, to the reason each Hebrew family slew a lamb and put it's blood on their door before the Exodus.

It looks like no one is going to do it so I will.
The Passover lamb's blood was an act of defiance and an act of loyalty. Defiance to the Egyptians and loyalty to God.
Read the whole story for yourself rather than rely on Cecil B. DeMille's version for it all and you will gain better understanding. Here are a few significant portions:
Deuteronomy Chapter 8 tells this
21. Thereupon, Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron, and he said, "Go, sacrifice to your God in the land."
22. But Moses said, "It is improper to do that, for we will sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to our God. Will we sacrifice the deity of the Egyptians before their eyes, and they will not stone us? < the lamb is being spoken of here..
Continued in my next and LAST additional detial

Chapter 10 gives another hint about the upcoming use of the lamb…
2. and in order that you tell into the ears of your son and your son's son how I made a mockery of the Egyptians, and [that you tell of] My signs that I placed in them, and you will know that I am the Lord."
Exodus Chapter 12:12
12. I will pass through the land of Egypt on this night, and I will smite every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast, and UPON ALL THE GODS OF EGYPT will I wreak judgments I, the Lord.

The blood of an Egyptian deity was an act of defiance and a slam on the God’s of EGYPT for their SLAVES to show that they would place their god’s blood on their door and roast and eat their Egyptian deity in the Egyptians sight and God pass over and protect THEM!

Those are the purposes of the lamb and God commanded them to kill and eat a lamb and remember this. How can one who claims to love Torah corrupt the story completely by ignoring the direct command of God in Torah to REMEMBER why?

Answer 1

this isn't neatly formed into points to answer the individual questions. But it's all I have time for now.

I may add to this later, but my one of my favorite passages is what Hashem said to Cain in Gen 4:7
"Surely, if you improve yourself, you will be forgiven. But if you do not improve yourself, sin rests at the door. Its desire is toward you, yet you can conquer it"

In Ex 32:32 it says "And now if you would but forgive their sin! but if not, erase me now from the book that you have written."

THis is when Moses went up to plead to Hashem for forgiveness for the sin of the golden calf.

In Lev 4 and 5 there is a discription of the various sacrifices for sin. Not one of these is a pesach lamb. Note carefully that there is no sacrifice anywhere for intentional sin. In one of the psalms it says the only sacrifice is a broken spirit and a contrite heart.

What isn't clearly stated is that the repentence is complete before the sacrifice is brought. That's elsewhere.



And in a very well known passage. Ex 34:6:7

Hahem passed before him and proclaimed: Hashem, Hashem, G-d, preserver of kindness for thousands of generations. Forgiver of iniquity, wilful sin and error, and who cleanses.

Lev 26:3 is part of the prayers after the Shema..If you will follow My decrees, etc....
The first time I read all of Lev 26, my pants turned brown.

The Pesach festival meaning is in Ex 12:14 "This day shall be a remembrance for you and you shall celebrate it as a festival for Hashem; for your generations, as an eternal decree shall you celebrate it.

The passage has a noted absence of anything to do with atonement for sin.

Joshua 1:8 THis Book of the Torah shall not depart from your mouth; rather you should contemplate it day and night in order that you observe to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way successful, and then you will act wisely.

Now from their book.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepth not his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.
2:5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of G-d perfected: hereby we know that we are in him.

Lest someone say this refers to the two great commandments, Hillel was asked to state the Torah while standing on one leg. He stated the two great commandments and said the rest was commentary. These two commandments were a common paraphrase of the time.

For an example of human saviors, see Neh 9:27. ...You would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies. This shows there are multiple saviours, they are men, their purpose is always secular. To save from the hand of enemies.

On Tshuvah. Neh 9:29. You warned them, to return them to Your Torah, but they acted wickedly and did not listen to Your commandments and transgressed through Your laws, which a man should do in order that he may live through them.

Well, this is enough for now. There are so many passages that say only Hashem forgives sin. Christians will never understand that sins weren't forgiven by sacrifice, but mostly they were barbarques to celebrate the at one ment that happened after repentence. If they were to agree with that, it would blow their whole theory.

There is another problem: According to christianity, Jews didn't even NEED forgiveness at the time.


In Matt 3:2 John says "repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
In matt 3:3
John the baptist quotes "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

In Judiasm, when you say two verses, the verses in between are considered to be part of the quote.

This comes from Is 40:1 -3

Comfort, comfort my people. (The word is the same as repent in Hebrew) says your G-d.

Note carefully verse 2. Speak consolingly of Jerusalem and proclaim to her that her period of exile has been completed, THAT HER INIQUUITY HAS BEEN FORGIVEN; FOR SHE HAS RECEIVED DOUBLE FOR ALL HER SINS FROM THE HAND OF HASHEM.

Now, even the christians know that once a sin is forgiven, G-d no longer has the capacity to remember it. So, how is the person they worship G-d if he remembers these sins that were forgiven? According to John the Baptist, this marks the time when the sins were already forgiven, so there is no need for a christian type of salvation. It's already done here.

Well, if I keep going, it will take longer than 6 hours.

Shalom

Answer 2

well, you present a very strange request -- a Torah observant Jew knows that Torah includes the talmud as well, and the Rabinic exegesis of the text, so asking for Torah "alone" is tough for a non-Jew to understand if it goes beyond the literal text.

The issues are not nearly as clear cut as you present -- the Torah doesn't say not to rely on anything else for atonement because the torah makes it clear that all things are just through god. as to the notion of the messiah, the word "moshiach" is exclusively used to refer to a human through the text so the error is to assume that it could refer to something else.

For number 2, there are many quotes that state that glory and prayer is to god. Now, they don't say "god alone" but once the second commandment says "have no other gods" it seems pretty clear that this excludes anything else. but check Isaiah 37:16 just to be sure and kings 2 19:19, psalms 86:10 and even deut 4:35. I could get more but I'm not sure what you are looking for.

Lev 26:44-45, deut 29:14, and deut 32:46 make some clear statements about the singular bond with the jews.

the problem with the claim of any sacrifice as a sole source of atonement is twofold -- not only was an animal sacrifice never the only method of atonement (as sacrifice only worked for a limited group of sins and even then, a poor person need not bring an animal, but a grain offering was fine) but also hosea 14:3 says that prayer replaces sacrifices when the temple is destroyed.

human blood is never acceptable as a sacrifice and then there's No man can die to remove the sins of another and no man can die because of another’s sins (deut 24:16, Jeremiah 31:29, Ezekiel 18:4, 20, 27-28 and 2 Kings 14:6)
A death as a penalty only works if the person who dies is the sinner (num 35:33)
God does not want sacrifices – he wants obedience to his Torah (1 Sam 13:22)
and lev 18:21.

i have more, but read these first, check the context and we'll talk.

Answer 3

1. You might want to post these in the evening and let 24 hours go by before saying that nobody is answering. I think lots of people don't get on in the mornings on weekdays before work and won't see it until the evening.

2. Some of your questions aren't stated very clearly. Maybe people aren't sure what you're asking. I'm not. Explain where the Torah forbids [whose] statement of beliefs?


P.S. If your Q&As are kept private, people can't go back and look at your previous questions to see how you worded them there.

Answer 4

EDIT: The original "paschal" lamb was slaughtered, and its blood used to mark the doorposts of those who believed in HaShem, on the night when the first-born of the Egyptians were slain. It represents a sign of faith, not of sinning/repentance/forgiveness. Is that the point you hoped someone would make?

Answer 5

Yes, I agree with the other poster. Let the question ride for 3 days. If you get no common-sence answers, then then there ARE NO REAL JEWS in here. Maybe there ARE NO torah Jews left....in which case; we have ALL been lied to. And if there are no real Jews in here, we definitely know that there is a big con-game going on somewhere. That would convict my deceptive so-called Christian brethren for sure of sin. Sorry, I just had to comment. These are EXCELLENT questions. Anyone capable of answering these questions and doesn't....is suspect. Have a great day!

Answer 6

1) Christians identify Messiah with Jesus and define him as God incarnated as a man, and believe he died for the sins of humanity as a blood sacrifice. This means that one has to accept the idea that one person's death can atone for another person's sins. However, this is opposed to what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 24:26, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin," which is also expressed in Exodus 32:30-35, and Ezekiel 18. The Christian idea of the messiah also assumes that God wants, and will accept, a human sacrifice. After all, it was either Jesus-the-god who died on the cross, or Jesus-the-human. Jews believe that God cannot die, and so all that Christians are left with in the death of Jesus on the cross, is a human sacrifice. However, in Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls human sacrifice an abomination, and something He hates: "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods." All human beings are sons or daughters, and any sacrifice to God of any human being would be something that God would hate. The Christian idea of the messiah consists of ideas that are UnBiblical.
The Bible is clear, and it is consistent. One person cannot die for the sins of another. This means that the guilt from the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another person. First, in Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks God to punish him for the sin of the Golden Calf, committed by the people. God tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the person who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, God simply states this as a basic principle, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sins." This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
2) The Jewish idea of God is that God is One and Indivisible. We cannot divide God up into separate parts, where each part of God is UnEqual to each of the other parts, but somehow they are one and the same. The Hebrew Scriptures describes God as an absolute One, but the Christian's New Testament describes the Christian idea of God as divisible into three parts called a trinity. In the Christian's New Testament, Jesus at one point claims to have different knowledge than other parts of the Christian Trinity. For example, Matthew 24:36 or Mark 13:32. In another verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian Trinity, for example, Luke 23:34. And in Matthew 26:42, Jesus's will is not the same as the will of the Father. Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:19. Furthermore, Jesus supposedly said that the punishment for blaspheming against one part of the Trinity is not the same punishment for blaspheming against another part of the Trinity. In the Hebrew Scriptures, however, God is One, as we read in Deuteronomy 6:4, as well as in Isaiah 44:6, where God tells us, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the first," it means that God has no father. When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the last," it means that God has no literal son. And when Isaiah tells us that God said, "Besides me there is no God," it means that God does not share being God with any other god, or demi-god, or semi-god, or persons, and there is no trinity.
3) The New Testament contains more than just a mild criticism of the Jews. In fact, it is extremely anti-Jewish. It is true that some Christians maintain that the New Testament attack on the Jews is quite mild. Yet, how mild is the "bloody commission," a statement that places upon the Jews guilt for all the righteous blood ever shed upon the earth (Matthew 23:35), or a spurious self-condemnation whereby the Jewish people supposedly take upon themselves and their offspring an eternal blame for the death of Jesus (Matthew 27:25), or a declaration that the Jews are the children of the devil (John 8:44) and that the Jews are a "synagogue of Satan" (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). Paul summed up the denunciation of the Jews with the inflammatory declaration that the Jews are "hostile to all men" (1 Thessalonians 2:15).

The New Testament was written by-and-large for Gentiles and institutionalized an anti-Judaic theme for its audience. It distorted and fictionalized events in order to portray the Jews, all Jews who do not accept Jesus, as evil and responsible for his death. The attitude of the New Testament authors toward the Jews is very clear.

Othe New Testament references reinforce this fact:

Matthew 8:12 Jews cast into outer darkness
Matthew 23:37,38 Jerusalem killed the prophets
Mark 13:9 in synagogues you shall be beaten
John 8:43, 47 You are of your father, the Devil...you are not of G-d
Acts 7:51-53 persecute prophets; betrayers & murderers
Acts 13:45-51 Jews reject word of G-d, so turn to Gentiles
Titus 1:10-14 they of circumcision...must be stopped
John 16:2, 3 whoever kills you will think he does G-d a service
Matthew 8:10-12 children of kingdom cast into outer darkness
Luke 20:9-16, Matt 13:36-43, and Luke 19:12-27 are parables which speak of
Gentiles inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven while Jews are cast into Hell.

The term "new covenant" would be meaningless unless what Jeremiah meant by it was the renewing of the old covenant, which will thereby regain its full original vigor. The covenant of old is of eternal duration, never to be rescinded or to be superseded by a new covenant (Leviticus 26:44-45). The covenant between God and Israel is frequently referred to as everlasting (e.g., Genesis 17:7, 13, 19; Psalms 105:8, 10; 1 Chronicles 16:13-18).

The Christian position concerning Jeremiah's covenant is the complete opposite of what the Jewish Scriptures teach. Hebrews 8:13 states: "In that he says, a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete. Now that which is being made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away." In stark contrast to this statement, the Scriptures state: "The works of His hands are truth and justice; and His precepts are sure. They are established forever and ever, they are done in truth and uprightness" (Psalms 111:7-8); "The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God shall stand forever" (Isaiah 40:8).

Jeremiah's "new covenant" is not a replacement of the existing covenant, but merely a figure of speech expressing the reinvigoration and revitalization of the existing covenant. The people of Israel possess an old covenant yet a new covenant, truly an everlasting covenant.
4) There are three biblical regulations, which relate directly to a study of the claim that Jesus was the ultimate passover lamb whose cosmic role is interwoven with the paschal commemoration and its symbolism. The Israelites must offer the blood of the sacrifice without leaven (Exodus 34:25).

The Israelites must not break any bones of the paschal lamb (Exodus 12:46). The Israelites must sacrifice the paschal lamb only at the place appointed by God (Deuteronomy 16:5-6). The Torah specifies that these ordinances are given solely to the Jewish people, who alone are commanded to sacrifice the paschal lamb. However, the Romans executed Jesus. It will not do to say that the Jews handed Jesus over to the Romans. Fulfillment of the commandments could only come through following the procedure set down by God.

The Law is clear: The sacrifice of the paschal lamb, without blemish and within the year of its birth (Exodus 12:5), is only ordained for the Jewish people (Exodus 12:14). To them alone is given the additional command not to break the bones of the paschal lamb (Numbers 9:12). Despite this fact, the supposed non-breaking of Jesus' bones in order to fulfill the commandment is credited by the New Testament to the pagan Roman soldiers (John 19:36). The Romans were never bound by the law, so that crediting them with fulfillment of a Passover commandment is irrelevant.

Not only was it incumbent upon the Jewish people alone to sacrifice the paschal lamb, but the geographic location for the shedding of sacrificial blood was specified. The paschal sacrifice could only be offered at the Temple altar (Leviticus 17:11, Deuteronomy 16:5-6). The Temple, itself, was situated within the city of Jerusalem. However, the New Testament locates the site of Jesus' execution outside both the Temple and the city of Jerusalem (John 19:20, Hebrews 13:12). In addition, the specific date for the paschal sacrifice is the late afternoon of 14 Nisan (Exodus 12:6). If the Last Supper were a seder, then the Synoptic Gospels' chronology would date the crucifixion on 15 Nisan.
5) If one believed that a blood sacrifice was necessary before God would forgive you, then even one example where God forgave without a blood sacrifice would prove that this idea is UnBiblical. There are many such examples, but the most interesting is found in the Book of Leviticus. The reason this is so interesting is that it comes right in the middle of the discussion of sin sacrifices, which is found in the first chapters. In Leviticus 5:11-13, it states, "If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering." One can also see that one does not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins in the Book of Jonah 3:10. There, the Bible simply states that God saw the works of the people of Ninevah. Specifically it says that the works God saw were that they stopped doing evil, and so God forgave them. There are plenty of other examples, and the idea that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is UnBiblical.
What, EXACTLY does God say about human sacrifice in the TaNaCH? In Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him, "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. In Jeremiah 19:4-6, God tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind to demand it from His creation, "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind." We see the same thing in Psalm 106:37-38, and in Ezekiel 16:20. This means that God would not accept Jesus's death on the cross as a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. The very idea of that God would accept a human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is UnBiblical.
The Bible is clear, and it is consistent. One person cannot die for the sins of another. This means that the guilt from the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another person. First, in Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks God to punish him for the sin of the Golden Calf, committed by the people. God tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the person who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, God simply states this as a basic principle, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sins." This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
6 ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance_in_Judaism

P.S.
I am Jewish....