Question concerning 2 Corinthians 12:1-3?

Question

Here are the verses:

2 Corinthians 12:1-3
"I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows"

Alot of scholars tend to think that Paul was describing himself here......as if he were speaking in the "third person" so to speak. I have 2 questions concerning this:

1) Do you think Paul is describing himself here?
2) If it is indeed Paul, why do you suppose he used this tense (3rd person)?

Thanks,

Primo

Answer 1

"Do you think Paul is describing himself here?" - Yes

"If it is indeed Paul, why do you suppose he used this tense?"
I love this question because it gives us a glimpse into the eternal and what awaits those who believe and have entrusted their souls to the Savior.
Paul mentioned that the things he saw, heard and experience would be considered "unlawful" to put in to words. Remember, we live in a very narrow band of existence here in the physical domain. The sky and even space is part of the limited physical restraints of time-space. Heaven is part of another dimension with no such limitations. Sound, light, smell, and taste are not limited by a small bandwidth of experience.

Can you imagine color beyond the mere spectrum of light? Or sound beyond the puny 20hz-20khz we hear now? What wondrous music we have today that gives us joy. And that with a limitation of only SEVEN whole notes!

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:9,
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,Nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

Remember, Paul was stoned to death in Acts 14:19. During that time (that was probably a brief moment) God took him in to the eternal where time does not exist, since time is but a physical property of this space-time domain.

It may have been that God gave Paul his new body so that later he could write about it in both Romans and Corinthians. This new body was so vastly different, that he would not even think of calling it "him" any more. Nor could he perceive the difference of whether it is a spiritual body or a physical body. It seemed to be both. The ability to taste, smell, hear, and perceive were all present. However, there was no pain or vulnerability to disease or corruption. There was no pain in his eyes, but rather such vision was acute and could perceive color and form beyond the limits of four dimensions. The fact was, he could not make heads or tails of it.

And really, if anything would make the apostle Paul speechless, that had to really be something. So I must agree with Corrie Ten Boom when she proudly proclaims, "With Jesus even in our darkest moments, the best remains, and the very best is yet to be."

Answer 2

Primo, I agree with the other answerers: Paul was DEFINATELY writing about himself here. If you examine all the other instances where Paul used the word "boast," you'll see that he never boasted about anything that he did; he always boasted about what God did for him.

For example, Galatians 6:14 reads: "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Taking this into account, Paul's use of the third person here makes perfect sense.

Consider also that Paul wrote about subjects not approached by any other Apostle until John received the Revelation. Most notably, Paul writes about the Rapture of the Church -- almost 40 years before John did. It is quite possible, then, that the vision Paul received pertained to the end of the Church age.

Answer 3

There is a key thing to note in verse one.
Paul speaks of a man " in Christ"
This portion is definately speaking of the Brother Paul. We see this in verse 7
" And because of the transcendence of the revelation, in order that I might not be exceedingly lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan that he might buffet me in order that I might not be exceedingly lifted up"

Our Brother Paul spoke of himself as a man In Christ, he was not of the old creation but as the New Creation.

2 Cor 5:17
So then if anyone be IN CHRIST he is a new creation. The old things have passed away, behold they have become new.

In this section brother Paul desired to boast of the New Creation in Christ by boasting of his weakness in the flesh, the old creation.
I believe that our brother referred to himself in the third person because of his own humility by the whole situation.
To share of this kind of experience is not an easy thing. Many would become so full of themselves and so puffed up by it that the enemy would gain a lot of ground by their pride.

Unlike any of the other apostles, Paul saw the matter of the Body of Christ and he is the only one who used that particular term.
These revelations were given to Paul because God could trust Paul ( in Christ) to not be carried off by what he saw.

Paul was a very useful vessel for God's purpose and will to the gentiles. And because He was such a vessel the Lord was able to reveal to him certain things that He was not able to do with the others.

We just have to thank the Lord for all the dear brothers who were used by the Lord to bring the WOrd to us in such a rich and profound way.. yet in such a simple and applicable way,

Good Q brother
in Christ
sandy

Answer 4

1) As everyone else I do agree Paul is describing himself.
2) My guess is he used the 3rd person for a couple reasons....one of which being he didn't want to say something that would cause him to go to jail yet again. Also, he knew that Jesus used parables to say things that confused those who weren't believers and Paul did the same thing,.....to encourage the believers while confounding those who where not believers.

Answer 5

I think it probably was himself Paul was describing, and was probably describing events following his being stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19).

He may have left the telling in the third person so as to avoid people asking such (relatively) trivial things as: "What's heaven like?" when he would rather they asked "How do we lead people to Christ?"
What I've written is what I have read theologians saying, and I have no reason to argue.

May God bless all who truly seek the truth about Him.

Answer 6

It seems like it was Paul, as we see if we keep reading further:

2 Corinthians 12 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



2 Corinthians 12
Paul's Vision and His Thorn
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Maybe Paul is atempting to help the Corinthians relate to what he went through,

He is showing that he is just as human as anyone else.

Answer 7

1)Yes

2)Paul is trying to keep the focus on the Lord and not on himself. As he writes in verse 9 "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corinthians 12:6-7 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Answer 8

Primo, I never really gave this much thought. But I do believe it is Paul describing himself and in thinking about it and reading all the thoughts here, I do agree with Warrior.
thought provoking....thanks

Answer 9

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

He is telling you how to tel that he is a true messenger of God!

If Paul (or any other author) denies Jesus divinity, or other key undisputed biblical doctrines (as cults often do, in error), you can be sure it is NOT the Holy Spirit speaking through him.

On the other hand, the fruits of the speaker's (Paul in this case) speech is to strengthen peopls faith in Jesus, and underlining biblical doctrinal convictions about his lordship.

I believe that we can be confident that the speaker, Paul in this case, is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In short, test the speaker by the bible and you will know what source is inspiring his words. If he denies Jesus divinity - or for that matter other key undisputed biblical doctrines you can be sure it isn't the Holy Spirit speaking through him.

If on the other hand the fruits of his speech is to strengthen peopls faith in Jesus, and underlining biblical doctrinal convictions about his lordship I believe that we can be confident that the speaker is inspired by the Holy Spirit

Answer 10

Byhisgrace and Schneb said it well- answered it well I mean.
I don't think I could top those answers.....I am glad I read through the answers first, because mine would of just been ramblings on and on -- LOL but yes what they said I agree 100% AND to be honest I had never really sat down and thought out those scriptures, so this was something I learned today as well! Thanks Primo!