Jews, Talmud and pedophilia?

Question

I had heard the rumor before that the Talmud sanctioned sex between adult males and three year-olds and I just blew it off as propaganda. But today I came across this site with many, many quotes from the Talmud on the subject. I was very surprised and I'd really like some educated Jewish imput on this link. I'm not posting this to start trouble, really. I would really like to know the full story from other, Jewish points of view.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_2.html

I am very aware of the story of Aisha who was post-pubescent when married. I'm not asking about the Islamic view on this, as I am familiar with it. Notice I asked for EDUCATED JEWISH input. Please don't waste your time and mine if you are neither.

Jade- If Bin Laden was mainstream Islam, I dare say he and his followers would have done us all in by now.

Kata...(Greek)- That's an interesting quote that I'm not familiar with. The "Ayahtollah" is not considered a Muslim according to many Sunni scholars. Now I see why. Good grief!

Gamla Joe- I read the whole thing. It also considers the matter of marriage with a three year-old and allows consumation. I guess I'm looking for some context into what seems to be clearly an acceptable practice at the time of the Talmud's writing. I am not trying to imply that contemporary Jews promote this.

Neshama- Please consider that not all people have wickedness in their hearts. You do not know me or anything about my intentions or my feelings about the Jewish people. I realize that some people use YA to promote their own agendas or to put others down, but I am NOT one of those people. If you would have at least looked through my Q&A before making accusations against me, you would have seen that I have a genuine interest in understanding Judaism and have great respect for it. My intention here was to give those more knowledgeable than myself an opportunity to explain what I read from a
Jewish perspective. I WANT to understand these words in the way a Jew would.

L'Chaim- Thank you for the link. I had actually already looked at it before posting the question and I understand the particular tractate that it discusses completely, but there were many others on the come and here site that weren't addressed, so that's why I posted the question.

MISHNAH. A GIRL OF THE AGE OF THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY MAY BE BETROTHED BY INTERCOURSE; … IF SHE WAS MARRIED TO A PRIEST, SHE MAY EAT TERUMAH.
— Babylonian Talmud Tractate Niddah 44b
Soncino 1961 Edition, page 308

Terumah is the word for temple offerings eaten by priests. This statement indicates that the three-year-old bride is the widow of the priest in all respects and privileges.

In the passage below, we see that the widow of a man who is not a priest can be sexually possessed by her erstwhile brother-in-law and thereby become his wife.

GEMARA. … R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his.
— Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 55b
Soncino 1961 Edition, page 376

The statement quoted above from Tractate Sanhedrin 55b also appears in Tractate Sanhedrin 69a, Soncino 1961 Edition, page 469.

The above is some of what was mentioned in the article.

These statements go beyond the hypothetical or what the legalities would be IF the unfortunate case of a 3 yr. old non-virgin's dowry would be. Can someone who has actually studied the whole Talmud address these, and hopefully the other claims towards the end of this link? If these statements are inaccurate or made up completely, could someone link me to a good online Talmud to work with? And if they are legitimate, could you please tell me your undrestanding of them based on your studies? How does an observant Jew approach them?

Again, I want to emphasize that I am not trying to "expose" Judaism, but to understand it from a Jewish perspective. I hesitated to even ask, but it was something bothering me, because I don't like to be in doubt. I would really like someone to clear this up for me in an honest way, whatever the case may be. If these tractates are legitimate, it doesn't mean that Judasim is evil. These are the words of fallible human beings after all.

Allonyoa- I know you are studying the Talmud. Could you please address these tractates specifically?

buttfor2- It is illegal to consumate a marriage with male or female who has not reached puberty according to Islamic law. Aisha was actually betrothed before this, but the marriage could not be consumated due to her not having reached menarche. The point being that, if the Prophet had no concern with whether she had physically reached womanhood, he could have consumated the marriage before that.

GAMLA JOE- Please notice the quotes above about the condoning issue.

Answer 1

For starters, your source itself is suspect since the entire thing reeks of anti semitism. And, no, I'm not just throwing that accusation out lightly.

Aside from the fact that the author of that long article never stays on topic (for example, she bounces from the Talmud to Dr. Laura [who gave up Judaism, from what I've heard] to a custody case in Italy (notice that that case wasn't an issue of sexual abuse) and back again, the author does nothing in the way of analyzing the subject at hand the way a Talmudic scholar would, they just give quotes.

That being the case, let me explain something to you very carefully, especially since I actually learned on the the sources they quoted (though not most of them) in detail and I never got the slightest impression that minor sexual abuse was permitted when I learned it.

What the Talmud many times talks about are consequences to actions, even when those actions are highly unlikely or could never happen. For example, it talks about whether a woman's marriage contract is of a virgin's or a non virgin's marriage contract. Thus, it talks about the issues of what would happen for a case where a girl was sexually abused under the age of three, if such a horrible thing were to happen. And the consequences regarding her marriage contract are that she would receive one that is due to a virgin. But, many people make a false association between consequences of actions and the permissibility of those said actions. Thus, I will say this once: The Talmud never permits sexual abuse of minors.

To give you another unrelated example of this: In the Bible, if men are quarreling and accidentally hit a pregnant woman and kill the unborn child they have to pay her restitution. There are those who conclude that since they did not face the consequences for murdering the unborn child thus abortion must be permitted in Judaism. However, again, that is a false assumption to make. Just because the consequence doesn't apply doesn't mean its permitted.

Answer 2

what's interesting is that i've got examine in yet another placed up that all and sundry the Jewish people who replied to this comparable question, published by employing you the different day, have been blocked by employing you. So in case you do no longer elect Jews to respond to, who else would be responsive to with regards to the Talmud? Do you recognize how many volumes are contained interior the Talmud? Why are you blocking off all the Jews from answering? Re your question: nowhere interior the Jewish faith is there something asserting that paedophilia is right. of course, you're the two quoting fullyyt out of context or greater in all probability, think ofyou've have been given this 'information' from a form of pitiful web pages that are packed with daft conspiracy theories. i'm guessing you are going to dam me now, additionally?

Answer 3

I will post some links to explain it in detail, but basically to explain it in a nut shell the Talmud is not written like a standard text.

It is a debate format with various people presenting and arguing counterpoints for the purpose of arriving at a ruling.

In the "three year old case" for example nowhere in the text dose it condone the action of having sex with a small child.

The entire debate was at what age is it considered that a girl can lose her virginity. One of the opinions was that anything below the age of three dose not count.

The same question is also asked, on that page, at what age is it for a boy, and the status of a girl whose hymen was broken by a forgein object.

Here is the page in question if you want to read it for yourself.
http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_11.html



If you do then you will see it is not condoning pedophilia, but talking about issues of religious legal status.

Edit--
Perhaps I am in error, can you please point out where it condones sexual intercourse with a three-year-old?

Answer 4

All religions have their extreme groups. For example, some Muslims think it is a great choice to strap a bomb to themselves and blow up innocent people. That doesnt mean all or even most believe that is a good thing to do. Most Jewish people I'd say upper 90 percent of them do not agree with this sort of behavior. So personally, when that happens I ignore the extreme belief and state that its just a interpretation by a few people to meet their needs and not God's wants.

I've known a lot of Jewish people and I have never met anyone with this belief. Chalk it up as an extreme belief and give it no more thought. Every religion have some crazy people involved.... Muslim, Jewish and Christian.

Daniel

Answer 5

Paul says he would not have known coveting was sin, except the Mosaic Law had specifically prohibited that act with "thou shalt not covet". Romans 7:7. If Paul's logic is correct, then the fact that the Mosaic Law never specifically prohibits sex within adult-child marriages, means that act cannot be called "sin".

Answer 6

Digusting thats not mainstrean judaism anymore the Bin laden is mainstream islam

Answer 7

Perhaps that's where the Islamic Ayatollah Khomeini got his idea for mufa’khathat! SICK SICK SICK!


Here's what the Ayatolla Khomeni said in modern times:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."

Answer 8

Yes, interesting. Some of the responses from christians also make it clear that, they have no problem with any form of child sex. The only intention is to bring bad name to Islam by whatever means they could. and If such things are quoted from talmud, it becomes irrevelevnt.

Answer 9

yes it's true. i went to a jewish school in israel, a zionist one, and i was constantly sexually abused. my great grandmother was of russian descent and married into a jewish family so i was constantly treated as a whore. my father would tell me to touch myself infront of him, my grandfather would molest me, and my father would photograph me naked. they do this to a lot of women. catholics do creepier things. email me for more info. it's all very covered up.

Answer 10

Tell us the story of Aisha. We'd love to hear it.

Post-pubescent? At age 9? In those days of lean diets? I don't think so.

Recent immigrants were shocked to be arrested when emulating that ancient tradition in the US. They did not see what the problem was.