"If we pretend it's not there, it'll go away"?

Question

Consider this a vent. I hate it when people respond to honest answers or honest questions with (e.g.) "See? They're all wrong (and we are right)" or "No, because... well, just no."

Okay, those are exaggurated examples. But I've seen similar answers in response to questions in this section where atheists give answers *with* definitions, evidence and what not. The "If we pretend it's not there, it'll go away"-attitude actually comes from christians themselves!

I am an astrologer and experience the same attitude in people who don't "believe" in it. I could come to them with any evidence, scientifically acceptable, and they would still deny everything. Not taking the evidence in account and continue using their own personal favourites that - of course - contradict the idea that astrology might be real.

What shocks me, is that not atheists, but christians are submitting to the same sort of behaviour. Will christians please open their eyes?

PS; I'm pagan, not atheist, so you know

Oh, and anyone who wants to comment on my astrology thing, please don't. This question isn't asked to bring up that discussion. There's a time and place for everything.


It all comes down to belief, though. If you believe something, doesn't make it any more true, just like when you don't believe something it won't make it any less true.

And there's no need to be insulting other people for what they believe. Or even worse, there's definitely no need to insult people who can prove your belief is wrong with facts.

Ahmad - you do realise that paganism is a collective of different sorts of religions; *not* christian or not monotheistic.

Mine doesn't worship stones.

There are a few scientists I can name who did research towards it - came to the same conclusion as astrology in different terms.

One of them's a frenchman named Gaquelin. Another measured interference in radio signals which coincided with an astrologically stressful position of venus (but he denied the existence of astrology - his findings were purely objective and he stated very clearly that for him this did not prove or deny the influence of astrology but that those were his findings noneteheless - Gaquelin did the same sort of statement) and yet another scientist (names elude me at the moment but I can look them up if you want) examined a similar event - also coming to the conclusion that syncrone with the position of the planets, there was a change in energy levels, influencing the personality of those born around that time. Again, same statement; didn't want to get involved in astrology.

But astrology comes from the same idea; synchronicity. Which we have Jung to thank for.

All three - and more - have been accepted by science, but of course not much talked about.

The "if we pretend it's not there, it'll go away"-syndrome.

The only thing they do talk about, are experiments where people who have never seen an astrological chart before have to identify their own chart. (The first time I saw a chart, I had no idea what the hell it meant - so I assume other people would only have been lucky to pick out their own charts). The results were those of chance - no surprise there.

And another one - executed by the *same* scientists - where they employed *one* astrologer to represent the whole of astrology who had to put charts to the people.

Of course, if you employ one doctor to represent the whole of medical science, and he's s|-|ite at his job, does that mean medical science is a waste of time?

Anyway, as I said, there's a time and place for everything and I already made clear that this is not the time and place to discuss my relation with astrology

Andrew, I like your answer. Well thought through.

From either side - atheist, christian, astrologer, sceptic, whatever - everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it. You generally have two choices; you either accept your own belief and continue to be open and accepting to other people's opinions, or you continue to have your own belief and suffer the "If we pretend it's not there, it'll go away"-syndrome.

I prefer people who have been able to make up their own mind, but keep an open mind to other people's opinions nonetheless. I don't believe in atheism, I don't believe in the christian beliefs, that doesn't mean those beliefs don't exist.

If you imagine that all those beliefs are people, and one belief would ignore all the others, and other beliefs would do the same - they would all be very fecking arrogant and antisocial, wouldn't they?

gdc - I already have studied it.

Doing it again now on my own accord for a change, charing myself into Jung's works. Not a big fan of Freud myself.

*charging, not charing.

Bullfighter - I only prefer Jung over Freud because I don't support Freuds idea of mirroring your own shortcomings on your patients. Half the world had an oedipus complex only because he had it. Half of his patients relapsed and even more so have been misdiagnosed. He was also very eager to prescribe cocaine to his patients, and several among them have died of overdoses. There are several reads on Freud's malpractice. It was that malpractice that made Jung cut the ties between the two of them (as you might know, they've worked together for several years). Jung had a very similar view on psychology as Freud - although he didn't force diagnoses down into patients' throats - but he only showed an *interest* in Astrology, and even then only late in his life. He never practiced it himself. He didn't as much as know the basics of it. He only said he wished he did.

Answer 1

Funny - your header made me think you were going to slam atheists with your question. Talk about your bait and switch!

I don't know what "evidence" atheists can give to prove creation without a creator; or the existence of anything (besides a Higher Power) without an origin.

But when they can produce such evidence, I'll be ready to listen.

Answer 2

In the absence of absolute certainty it is for each of us to choose which fictions to turn in to facts. Belief becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; it is true because we believe it and because we believe it, it can only be true.

There is absolutely no scientific "proof" whatsoever that astrology is anything other than a load of old bunkum - it's truths are rooted in belief, not unassailable fact.

However, and that said, I tend to place a greater significance in the universe beyond this world than some; I can easily accept that the ever-changing alignments and patterns described by the other planets have subtle influences on all living things. I live in a strongly maritime community; I understand how the changing relationship between the sun and the moon effect the tides, and the tides effect how long we can lay in bed on certain days. I understand how the retrogradation of the inner planets can create problems with weaker radio communications systems. And I've seen for myself how congers and other fish behave differently under the changing light of the moon.

It's the cheesy nature of popular astrology that bothers me, and the absolutely ridiculous notion that the future can be predicted by star-gazing. I mean, how can all pisceans have a windfall today, and all libras have a hiccup in their relationships?

If I had to make a guess about how it works I'd say that maybe "astrological forces" play some kind of role in shaping the personality of us little people here on earth. They might provide an insight not in to the future but in to the next best thing - a clearer understanding of what a person is like, and how he or she might react under changing circumstances.

If you know (by astrology or any other means) what somebody will do when confronted by a specific set of circumstances you can foretell the future by proxy. If you can determine that a virgoan would pinch the money if he gets a chance whereas the geminian would hand it in to the authorities you have a way of predicting what will happen.

Anyhow - Happy star gazing :o)

PS Any chance of a clue about the six winning numbers tonight? :oP

Answer 3

And as usual I have to answer these questions with the now repetitive answer! (I should just copy and paste) But I had to laugh at the one guy saying something about a creator. Well as I like to say who created the creator? OH and I love the great comeback to that one. "It has always been!" That is just the end all for any debate on it right? Wrong maybe the universe has always been and we are part of that energy that is the universe.

OK now let's get into the fun stuff organized religion the biggest killer history has ever seen. Well is it Christ or God or Allah or Ra or...etc Hmmm can i please make one up for ya we'll call it TIM! Now all I need are some followers to spread my gospel. But I need a hook Hmmm I know I will say that I have been blessed by a being that has told me that in order to reach salvation you will have to abide by these laws and if you don't your soul will spend an eternity of suffering! WOW! WOH! I don't want that so I am gonna do what he said because he has seen it and knows about it so he must be telling the truth! SUCKA! LOL How easy it is to start a religion. Just look around it has been going on for thousands of year. But the word for the one's you see now are called CULT'S! Hmmm so Muslim's,Christians,Jews...etc Hmmm are those not cult's also or are they grandfathered from that label? Just to let ya know the Catholics pretty much stole half the crap they preach from the pagans but then again I do have the ability to read!

But hey people are a product of their environment so I do not hold it against people who have never been taught anything else. But there comes a time where you need to really sit down and look at it logically and with an open mind! Wake up and look at reality please!

Answer 4

"I am an astrologer and experience the same attitude in people who don't "believe" in it. I could come to them with any evidence, scientifically acceptable, and they would still deny everything. Not taking the evidence in account and continue using their own personal favourites that - of course - contradict the idea that astrology might be real".

This would be a lot more convincing if there actually were any evidence. In fact the situation is quite the opposite - it is the "true believers" who are ignoring the evidential situation.

It is completely unfair for you to say that people who do not believe in astrology would deny any evidence: you're simply making that up, and have no way of supporting that statement. How do you know that we wouldn't change our minds if there were some evidence presented supporting astrology? You don't.
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"There are a few scientists..."

That's FAR short of being evidence. You don't have any evidence - just "there was a scientist once who said...".
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"All three - and more - have been accepted by science, but of course not much talked about.

The "if we pretend it's not there, it'll go away"-syndrome".

No, that's just false.

Look at what you're doing here - citing a couple of anecdotes, throwing out the name "Jung" (whose work is most certainly NOT "accepted by scientists"), and then trying to dismiss the real scientific work that was done with respect to astrology.

Doesn't the fact that you have to pretend that the facts are something other than what they really are tell you something about the quality of your belief? If astrology had anything to it, you wouldn't have to shut your eyes and make up stories in order to believe in it.

I can see why you prefer Jung to Freud - it helps you avoid noticing your rampant use of the "projection" defense mechanism.

Answer 5

I, for one, respect your right to believe in whatever you wish to believe. I'm a Christian who believes that my life should be the only proof of "why" I believe a certain way. My example should speak for my faith, w/o having to insult anyone, or shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. So that you'll realize my sincerity, I'm an Aquarian (birthstone: garnet), & I'm also aware that many semi-precious stones (& other minerals) do have certain "mystical" properties. I saw one answer that claimed that you "worship" these stones -- this has not been my observation. A close friend of mine (also a Christian) sells these stones -- either raw, or as "wire-wrapped" jewelry, & I've seen what great personalities his customers possessed. Although they benefitted from the properties of those stones, they didn't "worship" them. I'm sorry that you've had such bad experiences with other "so-called" Christians. Peace, love, & long life.

Answer 6

If there is an atheist who truly respects scientific principles, he or she will always be willing to examine the evidence for a particular theory. The point is that if there was scientifically acceptable evidence for astrology, numerology, or any number of "spiritualist" ideas, then they would be accepted, at least by the majority who adhere to the principles of science.

As of now, however, there is no scientifically accepted evidence that contributes to such belief systems. I would thoroughly recommend Richard Dawkins' new documentary "enemies of reason", which explores the lack of evidential base for such beliefs.

Answer 7

Hello ShameOnYou,...We don't know what will happen to us when we die,...We're all second guessing,...So we can all invent a philosophy around the greater ether,...Or have it invented for us,its called Christianity,or Islam or Buddism or,...However I won't knock religion,because it does give us a crutch,when human beings let us down!!,...regards,Jemmy.
*WeaselWise we could all be born again Hindus,Muslims,or even Pagans.
*Hey GDC there is free food in the local Physchiatric hospital,...Hey I'm going to get myself committed.

Answer 8

What ? ? ? ? ? NO. actual in no way ! each and every 2d spent with them is nearly a gold coin! I horde it !! Even on my sickest day i'm going to go through any discomfort only to be close to them ! Their unconditional love is the main efficient element in the worldwide. . . you won't be able to get any nearer to God, than spending a jiffy with a baby !!

Answer 9

Oh its like my brother back before 1990. He was a pure atheist Until he found out he had only 6 months to live, Then all of a sudden He knew God and in a big way. He died a bornagain Christain. Now I believe all atheists are the same. Oh its so much easier to not worship anyone until that day comes when you have to. So you see, I don't believe in Atheism, period.

Answer 10

This is a tough question. You are asking why can't Christians accept alternate theologies and why do they ignore them. O.K. I have no wish to offend you or anyone else, but this is the best answer I can give. For Christians, like myself, there is one main focus in our lives and that is The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. What annoys me about Atheists is their insistence to drive coach horses through our main philosophy and say everything we believe in is wrong. Now I accept that they have a right to their opinion, but they are never going to convince me that there is no God. The problem with astrology is that in a certain sense it is trying to predict the future. For Christian the only way to see that is through God. Also God does not give this power to everybody, and only gives what is needed for the bigger picture. So for a Christian this practise is totally incomprehensible. So the most we can do for these people is tolerate and show human compassion, because we can never understand why you don't believe in God.