Some animals are so underdeveloped that they have no brains, therefore they are unable to feel pain and?

Question

unable to suffer from pain. There bodies react to pain stimuli almost exactly the same as a plant does. To a veger, as food, one is forbidden while the other embraced.

The question therefore being, why? It cannot be for pain and suffering as neither have those conditions. It cannot be for death because both would experience death. Personal preference isn't an answer either. What is the reason for that personal preference. Saying "personal preference" is just saying "I don't know" or "I don't have a reason".

Very similar cases. Why is one forbidden and the other embraced?

Mike--bivalves (clams, oysters, scallops, etc.)

Mike----yet Jesus ate lamb and fish at the very least. Just science here in V & V anyways, none of that fantasy stuff.

Hey Trace :-)

Children at the comp. making threats eh? I hope you just laugh at it!

Where is this Ashley threat? I only saw some comment about you spilling your water dish...LOL

Hey Janet :-)

gardenia---why is the death of a non-feeling, non-suffering animal any worse than a plant?

janet--"you are hurting an animal"---there is no hurt, they feel no pain.

shortcut--"( I bet I know who You are.. You look like her!) You still in Enderby? (I'm going to Cranbrook)"--wha? Sorry, I'm in Chicago.

Janet---it just sends a signal to recoil, there's no sensation though. Plants do the same thing.

gardenia----I understand that but why?? The plants die too. The bivalves have no concept of family or friends or pain or suffering, just like the plants. Is it simply because the plant is stationary and the bivalve can move?

krister--big fish, little fish swimming in the....AACCCKKKK!!!!!

Ashley---I changed my name from me M.I.T.E. but I haven't forgotten my iilustrious title!

You've got some sexy shoulders there, are you "in the raw"?

Hey M & M---thanks for a good answer :-)

veggie---you're gonna make me go back through my question archive and find it?

The things I do for you people...LOL

Isn't Yahoo great? I just put my bivalve question into the search and up pops my own YA question, first on the list!

Here's the link you wanted, it's a vegan site. Under the "What about honey?" subsection of the Animal section.

http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html

veggie-----if a bivalve feels it to some degree than so does a plant because they react the same way.

veggie---"would activate a structure in the plant that is conscious"--you are misreading or seeing what you want to see or something......there is no structure of this type in plants and there is no structure of this type in bivalves. Neither has anything to process the sensation as pain.

kristen---I guess you aren't aware that millions upon millions of animals are killed by farming produce for human consumption every year, otherwise you wouldn't argue your point.

majnun----you can do better than avoiding the question I think. I want a reason, not "it is what it is", that's a cop out.

Answer 1

Nice try but no animal can exist without a brain. The brain controls all functions of the body and without it an animal would not survive. What point are you honestly trying to prove? Do you feel you need validation for your own diet or are you just trying to justify your own. The fact is animals feel pain, plants don't. Plants may react to a break in the photosynthetic process but they do not feel pain. Ignoring the facts and presenting fiction is not a way to live. Why am I vegetarian? Because I can't find a single good reason to eat meat. Is that simple enough for you?

Answer 2

Hi Me... can you give examples of which animals these are?

I guess personally it doesn't make a difference to me since I used to not eat bivalves before. I've never been all that into seafood or fish.

But assuming that I was, I would have to say that to me the most important thing (what made me turn veggie) is the fact that you are hurting an animal. If it is true that these bivalves do not feel then it is true that it would be similar to eating plants. BUT there is also the fact that these bivalves are not considered plants. If they are part of the animal kingdom it must be for a reason. I don't know much about these bivalves... they might not have a brain and might lack a lot of the things other animals have, but they must have more composition than that of a plant!

To me it's plain and simple... I don't need to follow anyones "rules to vegetarianism", I don't care if I'm called a vegetarian or if I'm simply "a person who does not eat meat". All I know is I won't eat something that I know caused pain to another being. And in this case I wouldn't eat these bivalves because they are part of the animal kingdom and I'm NOT sure that they don't feel pain. (Besides that, I REALLY think they are icky!! Don't some people refer to them as the insects of the sea??)


Trace... I saw the Ashley "threat"! lmao...


EDIT:

Me: How do you know for sure?? I read something about them having an organ that excretes something when they are in danger. Wouldn't that be associated with some type of sense of harm and pain? Again, I don't know much about it but I'm just not 100% sure that they don't feel pain.


Trace: Of course! Isn't that what this is all about?! I guess there are too many close-minded people... it's pretty sad. I'm glad that at least there are a few of us that can have a rational, interesting discussion! :)

Answer 3

The point of ethical vegetarianism (or veganism) is to not cause suffering. If it can be conclusively shown that an organism cannot feel pain, then that organism would not fall under moral consideration, and could be used however one desires to use it. I am pretty close to vegan myself (not quite all the way), but there are some stances (like being against honey or silk) that some vegans have which I do not find convincing. The entire point is to not cause suffering. It is not a dogma. Do some people make it in to a dogma? Certainly, just like with everything else. But criticisms (like yours) of these dogmatists do not in any way affect the overall case for ethical veganism or vegetarianism.

Additionally many people say we should err on the side of caution. That there is not conclusive evidence one way or the other that, say, clams feel pain. You said that if a bivalve feels pain, then a plant feels pain. Leaving aside questions about the science behind this, lets assume that this is true and both bivalves and plants feel pain. What is the practical consequences? Should we stop being vegetarians?

Actually we feed far more plants to animals than we would in fact eat if we were eating them ourselves. You have to put a lot of calories in to an animal to get one edible calorie out of it. Those calories go to keeping the animal alive, growing, using energy, and the many unedible parts of the animal. Were we to eat plants ourselves, far fewer plants would have to be killed. If they suffer, then far fewer plants would suffer from a vegetarian diet than from a diet which included meat. So allowing that bivalves feel pain, and not challenging the connection between bivalves and plants, a vegetarian diet would still follow.

Finally, there may be a number of reasons aside from pain and suffering that a person chooses to not eat meat. Environmental concerns, human issues (such as world food supply), and health reasons play a role in many people's decision to eat vegetarian. These reasons may explain why some people will eat plants while not being willing to eat an animal with similar capacity for pain.

Answer 4

First may I ask where you got your info/your source. I would assume also that you are mainly talking about animals deemed seafood? If I'm wrong feel free to corect me.

WHY is a good question actually....FOR ME it would be the fact that just because they don't REACT to pain in the same way doesn't mean the don't feel it. (that's why I want to see your source to determine how they came to that conclusion). I don't care if it was the smartest animal on the planet or the dumbest...I don't care if they feel pain or not...I don't care about any of that....they felt it to a degree to what degree doesn't matter to me. I don't want to cause any animal for that matter pain suffering and the like no matter what degree. Just because it doesn't go by other animals pain levels...doesn't mean that the pain it experiences isn't great to them. For example people have different pain thresholds...just because one persons pain threashold is a 10 and another is a 5...doens't mean that the person who is experiencing a 5 isn't in pain...the 10 just has a higher pain threshold. Right...it's like that..just because it they don't all experience the same thing..doens't make it right. I don't want to cause any animal unessesary pain,suffering and the like. That's how I do it..by not eating them and not contributing to those things as much as I can.

Now plants are "alive" yes...but in a very different way. Plants don't think about growing..they just do. I'm not much on plants so I can't tell you exactly how...but I'm sure you get me. Plants "die" yes but they don't die in the same way as humans and other animals do. When you pick a plant they don't cry out..they don't try to do everything possible to resist..they don't fight back at all...they don't experience any emotions....ANIMALS do. Most importantly they don't have a heart..blood..and a brain. Plants are much different from animals...animals are most like humans...plants are most like a rock. They are worlds apart. That is just a few reasons why it's okay to eat them.

"For plants to feel physical pain, they must have some sort of organized tissue which, upon stimulation, would activate a structure in the plant that is conscious and could perceive the stimulation as painful. There are no structures within plants that are analogs to the pain receptors, neurons, and pain-perceiving portions of the brains of vertebrate animals. Animals, being mobile, benefit from their ability to sense pain; but plants simply have no biological or evolutionary need for the experience of pain."

That's from your source my dear. Plants don't react in the same way as an animal does to pain...because they don't feel pain. If they did they wouldn't be called plants..they'd be in the same catagory as us..animals. They are not.

Answer 5

well actually you cant say that not eating bivalves is preventing pain and suffering. do you know anything about commercial fishing practises? the by-catch rate for a shrimp is about 20:1 ( 1 shrimp caught while 20 other animals, like fish, turtles sharks ect. are caught and killed via suffocation in nets or on boat decks). so yes it is to prevent pain and suffering. not only that, other animals could be eating that, instead we are sucking the oceans dry. last year on the atlantic canadian ice flows, seal pup mortality was about 100%. the seal have no fish to eat due to overfishing from the last 100 years and the extreme by-catch ratios for these "no brained" animals, in turn the seals are getting smaller and then as a result the polar bears measured over the last 20 years have become smaller. it is like domino effect. so not eating any seafood is like an attempt to relieve pressure from species that do feed pain and suffering. not only that, whether they are hurting or not i think that every animal has a right to natural behavior and i have no right to kill it for absolutely no reason.

Answer 6

I feel the same about this. I have always wondered why animals such as clams, mussels, oysters ect are categoried this way. I know it is still an animal, but...... Also, fish and seafood are good for you. I know not everyday, with the mercury levels being high and all, but in moderation they are quite healthful.

I am sure I will get a lot of thumbs down, but I could never give up eating seafood. I like it way too much!

How are you today Me! I have been threatened by the crazy hippie Ashley! Too funny.

edit- Hey me. Had to go the eye dr., just got back to work. can't see sh*t after they dilated my eyes. Anyways, it is on David V's question yesterday about trolls. You should be able to find it.

Hey Janet- Yeah pretty funny.

I like your answer. I like the fact that you, Me, and myself can havethese discussions without getting all mad at each other. Much more adult don't you think?!

Answer 7

Why should it make any difference to you?

I could say why don't you eat dogs or cats. What would be your answer?

Some people are Mormons, I don't understand that religion but it makes no difference to me if some people want to believe in it. Some people like crappy music that I can't stand, wear their pants so low they almost fall off, and get rings put in their tongues and eyebrows. I think it looks stupid, but I'm not going to waste my time telling everybody that. I've got better things to do.

Answer 8

I refrain from eating seafood because industry fishing disrupts the oceans' delicate ecosystem.

The last bit of meat I ate was sushi, I really used to enjoy it...

Answer 9

As a vegan, I don't believe any animal should die just to satisfy my taste buds. Whether the animals you describe feel pain or not isn't really the point. The bottom line is that they have to die, and that's both sad and unnecessary.

Answer 10

What animals are these?

How can they have no brain if the eyesight is linked to the brain?

Oh you mean seafood, this is all I need to know about not eating living things and I abide by it:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.