Do JW realize that what they believe (Jesus=not The God) is the Arian doctrine of around 300 AD????

Question

And that the Arian doctrine was declared heresy by the Church?

Xyleisha:
1- Did not Thomas said to Jesus: "My Lord and My God" ??? (Jn. 20:27-28)
In greek : Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou"-
ho theos means "the god"
2- Did not Paul write: "we await ...the judgement of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ " (Titus 2:13)
in greek "ho megalous theos" = THE great god)

ladybugwith7up:

Can you explain these verses:

• Is. 7:14 & Mt. 1:23 - Christ is Emmanuel = God with us
• Is. 9:5-6 - a child is born to us, a son is given us... he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace
• Is. 42:8 - "I am the Lord... I will not give my glory to another”, & Jn. 8:54 - “it is my Father who glorifies me” & Jn. 17:1 - "Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you,” & Jn. 17:5 - ”..glorify me, Father, with the glory that I had with you before the world began” & Jn. 1:14-15 -...the glory of Father's only Son, full of grace and truth
• Is. 43:10 - “Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none.” - so Christ cannot be “a god”
• Is. 43:11 - "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior." & 1 Jn. 4:14 - ...the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world & 2 Pet. 1:1 , 2 Pet. 3:18 - “our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”

more for ladybugwith7up::

• Is. 44:6 - I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me & Rev. 1:17-18 - ...He touched me with his right hand and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, 18 the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever
• Is. 46:9 - I am God, there is no other; I am God, there is none like me - so Christ cannot be “a god”
• Mal. 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I change not; & Heb. 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.
• Hos. 13:4, Is. 43:11,45:21, & Lk. 2:11, Phil. 3:20, Tit. 2:13, 3:6, 2 Pet. 1:1, 2:20, 3:18, etc. - God is the savior, the Son is the savior

Answer 1

Wow nice catch. Not many people know what Arius taught. You are right however, they are very similar.

If anyone wants to do further research, I will list an excellent book which lists the original sources to read about this and other heresies.

edit-- Xyleisha you are very, very incorrect. Jesus himself claimed to be God all through the Gospels the deity of Christ is found in nearly every book of the New Testament. Way to many references to list. You can also check out that book I listed for the names of the Early Church Fathers that wrote on the subject and what they taught.

Here is just one verse to chew on:
Colossians
2:8 Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty, deceitful philosophy that is according to human traditions and the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

2:9 For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, (NET)

edit -- ladybugwith7up Yes Jesus claimed to be THE God of the Old Testament. check out the following verse.

John 8:58:
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!” (NET)

The above is an explicit claim to deity and a direct reference to Exodus 3:14. We know this to be true from context of the reaction of the Jewish leaders in the verse following:
John 8:59 Then they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out from the temple area. (NET)

Answer 2

So what? There were lots of competing ideas and philosophies at that point in time. Were the Arian believes "wrong" simply because Constantine ordered the believers in Christ to get their act together and as a result, the majority of priests declared 'heretics' those that disagreed ?

The creation of "the Church" in the third and fourth centuries was largely political and strongly influenced by 'scholar-priests' who believed that there needed to be some kind of reconciliation with Greek thought and idealism. The result was a set of confusing and conflicting doctrines, the worst of which was probably the "Nicean Creed" in 325.

That's not to say that competing sets of doctrine of the times, including Arianism, were any better. But, it probably wasn't any worse than what finally evolved out of the various conferences that formed the early "Roman" Church.

Leave the Jehovah's Witnesses alone. They have contributed many beliefs worthy of further study by all of us. I'm fairly certain that they know what they believe and that your attempts to enlighten them will have little or no effect.

Answer 3

They probably do not realize they are following an old heresy. They also think the church become corrupt soon after Christ was crucified so telling them what the church knew was heresy probably doesn't help them. All we can do is pray for them and try to talk to them when they come knocking on the door. God Bless

Answer 4

Jehovah's Witnesses concern themselves with studying, applying, and teaching bible truth, rather than with human traditions and philosophies.

The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses have not studied the details of false worship, such as Arianism. It seems unlikely that a typical Jehovah's Witness would be interested in anything "the [Catholic] Church" had to say regarding anything.

http://watchtower.org/e/kn37/

Answer 5

Do you realise that you should have SOME proof when copying a claim??

Sorry but many on here make claims that can often be quite random. Often I have found they simply heard/read it somewhere and took it for fact.

Hope this helps.

Answer 6

I've never heard that... but the first Christians never worshipped Jesus as God and Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty.

Answer 7

What the hey's an arian? And who the heck is JW? And why the hay are you asking?

Answer 8

Reasoning from the Scriptures

Jehovah

Is Jehovah in the "Old Testament" Jesus Christ in the "New Testament"?

Matthew 4:10 "Jesus said to him: 'Go away, Satan! For it is written, "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."" (Jesus was obviously not saying that he himself was to be worshiped.)

John 8:54: "Jesus answered [the Jews]: 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.'" (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.)

Ps. 110:1: "The utterance of Jehovah to my [David's] Lord is: 'Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.'" (At Matthew 22:41-45, Jesus explained that he himself was David's "Lord," referred to in this psalm. So Jesus is not Jehovah but is the one to whom Jehovah's words were here directed.)

Phil. 2:9-11: "For this very reason also God exalted him [Jesus Christ] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. [Dy reads"...every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father." Kx and CC read similarly, but a footbote in Kx acknowledges: "....the Greek is perhaps more naturally rendered 'to the glory,'" and NAB and JB render it that way.]" (Notice that Jesus Christ is here shown to be different from God the Father and subject to Him.)
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Official website of the Jehovah's Witnesses
http://www.watchtower.org
Online Bible
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index....

Should You Believe in the Trinity?
How Is the Trinity Explained?
Go to this Link and Look at this article From start to finish and see what you think after you read it:
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm
THE Roman Catholic Church states: "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion . . . Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: 'the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.' In this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent."—The Catholic Encyclopedia.

Nearly all other churches in Christendom agree. For example, the Greek Orthodox Church also calls the Trinity "the fundamental doctrine of Christianity," even saying: "Christians are those who accept Christ as God." In the book Our Orthodox Christian Faith, the same church declares: "God is triune. . . . The Father is totally God. The Son is totally God. The Holy Spirit is totally God."

What Does the Bible Say About God and Jesus?
IF PEOPLE were to read the Bible from cover to cover without any preconceived idea of a Trinity, would they arrive at such a concept on their own? Not at all.

What comes through very clearly to an impartial reader is that God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.
Published in 1989
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From Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 139
Beliefs and Attitudes of Christendom:
God is a Trinity: "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912 edition)

WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS:
The Bible says that Jehovah is greater than Jesus and is the God and head of Christ. The holy spirit is God's active force.

John 14:28 says: YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

John 17:20 says: Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

1 Corinthians 11:1-3 says: But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

Matthew 3:11 says: I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.

Luke 1:41 says: Well, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant in her womb leaped; and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit,

Acts 2:4 says: and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index....
John 3:16 says: 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

So how would Jesus be God if his Father Jehovah gave his only-begotten Son like John 3:16 said?
That wouldn't make any sense right?
SO JEHOVAH IS GREATER THAN JESUS
JESUS IS THE SON OF JEHOVAH
AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JEHOVAH'S ACTIVE FORCE

an extra Scripture for you to look at:
John 3:1-21 says: 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, Nic·o·de´mus was his name, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This one came to him in the night and said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you as a teacher have come from God; for no one can perform these signs that you perform unless God is with him.” 3 In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nic·o·de´mus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel because I told you, YOU people must be born again. 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.”

9 In answer Nic·o·de´mus said to him: “How can these things come about?” 10 In answer Jesus said to him: “Are you a teacher of Israel and yet do not know these things? 11 Most truly I say to you, What we know we speak and what we have seen we bear witness of, but YOU people do not receive the witness we give. 12 If I have told YOU earthly things and yet YOU do not believe, how will YOU believe if I tell YOU heavenly things? 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18 He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God.”

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From the Reasoning from the Scriptures

Is Jehovah in the "Old Testament Jesus Christ in the "New Testament"?
Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him: 'Go away, Satan! For it is written, "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."'" (Jesus was obviously not saying that he himself was to be worshipped.)

John 8:54: "Jesus answered [the Jews]: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.'" (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.)

Ps. 110:1: "The utterance of Jehovah to my [David's] Lord is: 'Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.'" (At Matthew 22:41-45, Jesus explained that he himself was David's "Lord," referred to in this psalm. So Jesus is not Jehovah but is the one to whom Jehovah's words were here directed.)

Phil. 2:9-11: "For this very reason also God exalted him [Jesus Christ] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Notice that Jesus Christ is here shown to be different from God the Father and subject to him.)
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EDIT:

you should read what I have and what Heavenly Eyes has. also go to tic-of-totg's group site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestion...

from Reasoning from the Scriptures page 211
Why did the Jews in general not accept Jesus as the Messiah?

The Encyclopedia Judaica says: "The Jews of the Roman period believed [the Messiah] would be raised up by God to break the yoke of the heathen and to reign over a restored kingdom of Israel." (Jerusalem, 1971, Vol. 11, col. 1407) They wanted liberation from the yoke of Rome. Jeswish history testifies that on the basis of the Messianic prophecy recorded at Daniel 9:24-27 there were Jews who expected the Messiah during the first century C.E. (Luke 3:15) But that prophecy also connected his coming with 'making an end of sin,' and Isaiah chapter 53 indicated that Messiah himself would die in order to make that possible. However, the Jews in general felt no need for anyone to die for their sins. They believed that they had a righteous standing with God on the basis of their descent from Abraham. Says A Rabbinic Anthology, "So great is the [merit] of Abraham that he can atone for all the vanities committed and lies uttered by Israel in this world." (London, 1938, C. Montefiore and H. Loewe, p. 676) By their rejection of jesus as Messiah, the Jews fulfilled the prophecy that had foretold regarding him: "He was despised, and we esteemed him not." ---Isaiah 53:3, JP.

Before his death, Moses foretold that the nation would turn aside from true worship and that, as a result, calamity would befall them. (Read Deuteronomy 31:27-29.) The book of Judges testifies that this occurred repeatedly. In the days of the prophet Jeremiah, national unfaithfulness led to the nation's being taken into exile in Babylon. Why did God also allow the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E.? Of what unfaithfullness had the nation been guilty so that God did not protect them as he had done when they put their trust in him? It was shortly before this that the had rejected Jesus as Messiah.


Was Jesus merely a prophet whose authority was similar to that of Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, and other religious leaders? page 210

Jesus himself taught that he was the unique Son of God (John 10:36; Matt. 16:15-17), the foretold Messiah (Mark 14:61, 62), that he had a prehuman existence in heaven (John 6:38; 8:23, 58), that he would be put to death and then would be raised to life on the third day and would thereafter return to the heavens. (Matt. 16:21; John 14:2, 3) Were these claims true, and was he thus really different from all other true prophets of God and in sharp contrast to all self-styled religious leaders? The truth of the matter would be evident on the third day from his death. Did God then resurrect him from the dead, thus confirming that Jesus Christ had spoken the truth and was indeed God's unique Son? (Rom. 1:3, 4) Over 500 witnesses actually saw Jesus alive following his resurrection, and his faithful apostles were eyewitnesses as he began his ascent back to heaven and then disappeared from their view in a cloud. (1 Cor. 15:3-8; Acts 1:2, 3, 9) So thoroughly were they convinced that he had been raised from the dead that many of them risked their lives to tell others about it.---Acts 4:18-33.