How much myth can be incorporated into a person before they are no longer historical?

Question

For example I have seen several christians suggest out here that jesus was just a rabbi who was crucified but the rest of his "miracles" are just mythology that must be taken on faith . Would this still constitue a "historical jesus"?

Surely you can't compare the potential myth of jesus to george Washington. We have photos, letters and writtings of G.W., every person in history has some myth, the question is how much is too much?

Tziyyon Ahavahi-Who says I trust most other ancient documents. When it comes to religion I certainly don't

Sorry portraits

Answer 1

That's an excellent question, one that scholars more learned than I have been debating for the better part of the last century. They do have some good historical-critical principles they apply to the texts that aren't that different from those used in textual criticism (preference to shorter passages, passages with unique semitisms, etc). But the "Historical Jesus" movement has kind of floundered lately, and pretty much every scholar has their own version of the "historical Jesus". So far be it from me to offer a learned opinion. I can refer you to one of the less tedious "historical biographies":
http://www.amazon.com/Rabbi-Jesus-Biography-Bruce-Chilton/dp/0385497938
But still, it's just one scholars point of view.

For me, I often find myth more powerful than history, but that's a whole different question isn't it? (Case in point, all the learned scholars somehow manage to find a "Jesus" within the myth that fits their version of history, right?)

Peace to you.

Answer 2

It depends on the story and how much fact we have surrounding the myth/story/person.

In Jesus' case, we have proof that several of the people around him lived, but does it mean that he lived? We don't know.

Hundreds of years prior to his birth, there were talks of a savior born to a virgin who could heal the sick and the blind. This savior would be born on Dec. 25 and when he died he would be resurrected. Who was this savior? Around 44 B.C., Octavian/Augustus of Rome fit this profile. So a lot of what we were taught in church/bible study, we may have to leave behind.

Our best bet would be to look for historical documents (particularly either Roman or Jewish) that talked about a prophet that was sent to be killed by crucifixion (a common way to die) instead of a murderer.

Until then, listen to all, but don't rush to believe.

Answer 3

I agree with the first poster. There are documented historical figures, who are just as mysterious as Jesus, yet we don't question their historical existence.

William Shakespeare for example, is still shrouded in mystery. We know the name of his wife, where he lived, and we THINK we know which plays he wrote, and when, but apart from that, what do we really know? Surprisingly little.

Jesus is in a different category, maybe, because of his religious status, but it is still open to invidividual interpretation whether he was a miracle-worker, the Son of Man, or just a carpenter.

Answer 4

I think the only way Jesus can count as historical is if he has left any evidence of his existence. If he hasn't, he is nothing more than myth and rightfully so.

Simply because he inspired a religion, doesn't make him historical anymore than Ganesh or Zeus. Of course, all the non-sense about the miracles will have to go for him to be taken seriously historically. I mean that stuff is just preposterous.

Answer 5

I think its not the amount of myth, that makes a [erson mythical, but rather the belief of the myth more than the actual stories.

As long one can define myth from fact, the person can still be considered historical with a mythical explanation. For example, George Washington was well documented as one founding fathers, who, as a tale, chopped down a cherry tree but admitted to the deed.

What if this story was changed, to the tree had then miraculously returned to its original state, unchopped, as it was God's test of Washington's character.
That would consitute as a near mythical origins of Washington, but that does not detract that he was a historical person.

Another example of this, is a Chinese Jade Emperor. He now venerated as the Lord of Heaven. His beginnings was as Huang DI, and he fought many mythical beings and barbarians.
One of his opponents is Chiyou, whom some consider the father of Koreans. He was said to be fearful looking, with claws and fangs. And he commanded a group of headless humans, who was initially defeated by Huang Di and was beheaded.

In order to solve their problem of being headless, these beings changed theirs chests to become eyes and their abdomen to become mouths with fangs.

However, stripping all the embellishments, we can arrive that, Huang Di was a tribal leader of the ancient Han people.
He fought many tribal wars, in order to claim the Yellow river basin for his people. Chiyou, was another leader contending for the same plot of land.
However, he lost and fled southwards, to present Korea.
The headless beings with faces on their torso, could be explained as fighters, who used great shields, decorated with fearsome faces in order to strike fear on their opponents.
Subsequently, the victors, embellished their own exploits, in order to awe the younger generations, and the myth of the encounter grew.

As the tales are passed down many generations, the embellished tales, being more creative and interesting, are remembered better than the historical fact. And that is when the historical Huang Di vanished under the myths

Answer 6

To me it seems like Jesus was just a man like many of us, in his time he was extraordinary mostly for his teachings, it seems as if after he died those teachings themselves took on the personification of the man himself... so yes... a great man a great teacher, but miraculous, I believe only in the sense of his attempt to provide us with a means to live together peacefully...

As for Mythology, I believe the bible like all other myths is about the morals rather than the story itself... search for the truth of why one does what they do and you can often apply it to many similar situations not just the single instance... its like in math using variables in the method rather than specific numbers...

Theres a reason why Myth exists, it helps us to see who and what we are, or should or shouldn't be... Just take the stories of Icarus, who tried to reach the sun, and that of the island of Atlantis, destruction was the price of their greed...

Answer 7

I am just curious to know if you really believe that 11 of the 12 disciples who lived with and witnessed the life of Christ, were brutally murdered and tortured for the myth of the miracles they never saw?

Answer 8

Well to be honest, ALL scripture, all scripture is allegorical and esoteric and its narrative formate is reflective to our own inner world of mind and being. So thus these things are to be applied within. There is a Historical Y'shua (Jesus real name) and there is a Scriptural Yeshua that represents an vibration/pattern of mind associated with the Anointing of mind or the Oneness-undivided tree of life.

When it comes to scripture and seemingly historical character is an renewed allegory of a immense spiritual significance within you. Anytime a person from history is adapted/incorporated to scripture they are no longer historical, but a mythology of your internal natures of consciousness. This is what it is called applying the Key of Knowledge. The bible is not a history book, it is essentially not historical, although there may be pieces of history interwoven with non-historical elements, mostly non-historical. Many people don't understand the point of scripture and what it is detailing, which would be the mind and being unto text to help in your preparation to enter the inner kingdom/know thy self (soul/mind birth).

Extra - Most of what is read literally in the Gospels could not have been true historical by the very record keepers then. Nor also the OT for that manner. But the Allegory should be "clear," and I will explain somethings. 12 Tribes of Israel which exist in "fragmented" or "divided" tribes become "slaves" in Egypt under its ruler (physical bondage of ones nature, the ruler the force of this world), Moses (The Law) leads one out of this "bondage" but can't take the tribes TO paradise, or to the promise land (the inner kingdom - soul birth), which is why Moses dies before they make it to the promise land. In stead he appoints Joshua/Yeshua (the vibration of mind, or pattern which brings harmony, associated with a mind moving in ONE) to take the lost tribes into the promise land, which of course is the only way to reach the it and to overcome the encounters (aspects of mind that comes by law, or aspects of self which must be overcome). In the New Testament this becomes evolved, because the 12 tribes become singular apostles which refers to divisions overcome in ONE with respect to the mind and its spheres/centers. Yeshua gathers them, whom is the vibration of mind which brings about this unison to completion. It is all about the mind, the evolution of the tree of knowledge to becoming the perfected tree of life. In Revelations 22, you see that the Tree of life has twelve manners of fruit. It's all about the evolution of mind to becoming complete/anointed, and you must fulfill the law to bring about the wholeness of mind necessary to become awakened or become your Higher Soul self in the flesh - or achieve the resurrection/birth/know thy self. But this is applying it within yourself, most apply it externally in rituals and traditions, missing the point entirely. Shalom.

Answer 9

Jesus probably historically existed

Answer 10

The historical Jesus was real...Again, as for the miracles, that is a matter of faith...

How can we trust any ancient document going by the standard you and many others arbitrarily place upon the Bible?

Edit:
We do not have photographs of George Washington, if we do please show them to me as that would interesting....Being that cameras or related equipment were not invented until after he was dead...

Edit:
So you are willing to believe an exaggerated Egyptian account or an exaggerated Roman account of things, but not something that come from the Bible just because it comes from the Bible? That is interesting...