Christians: Open invite!!!!!!!!!!!!?

Question

OK, give me your best shot! I'm a Pagan, I don't believe in the bible being the only truth.

Try to convince me otherwise, here are the rules:
No quoting the bible AT ALL
No speak of hell and eternal suffering
None of that "I feel it is right" or "God did this in my life"
No "God told me" or "God/Jesus says.."
You may only use 100% provable facts (Cite your source, links prefered)
No "read the bible" stuff (I have twice already)
And NO Opinionated sites
Only cold, hard, provable facts (The old "we exist" and "look at everything around you" bits are not acceptable)

10 points to whoever has the best argument, and yes a christian answer will be picked. You won't convert me but I want to see who can put forth the best effort.

Think of it as a friendly contest. No bashing each other please!

Best answer so far: Nikki

cmhelp1: Those things have also been happening for thousands of years, what makes now any different? I will check for an edit in your answer were you to put one.

Epitafios: Yes, but at least she's trying harder than the others.

Jonny boy: Opinionated site, but I give you credit for trying

Current best answer: Revjam

Answer 1

From my gathering, your request is like asking me to make you a cake without an oven, flour, milk, butter or eggs. maybe I misunderstood you. I enjoy a good, honest, non-bashing discussion. This is not an attempt at humor either.

But I will try to raise some points.
First, I need a non biblical reason for an objective moral law innate in all humanity.
Secondly, there is the non-biblical accounts of Jesus' resurrection. (Tacitus or Josephus)
Third, the Cosmological argument. Robert Jastrow, founder-director of NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies, said, "A sound explanation may exist for the explosive birth of our universe; but if it does, science cannot find out what the explanation is. The scientists' pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation."**
These are just a few. Now before I get bashed by those outside of our conversation, I know that these are not indepth explanations. One line can never suffice for so grand a subject. Respond to this if it is of interest. Have a great day.

Answer 2

The Bible predicted that there would be great suffering in the end days;
Earthquakes, faminies, hurricanes, tornadoes wars, rumors of wars, lawlessness, and terminal diseases all to the likes that the world has never seen nor will see after this. Children having no human emotions or affections for anything. Father killing son, son killing father - mother killing daughter, daughter killing mother, children killing others. People having great disrespect for anyone and everything that is of Jesus and His Father. Nation against nation. Hatred in humans for one another that is worst than in any time in history. The seasons being unrecognizable; 90 degree winters, 30 degree summers, tornadoes in the winter, snowing in hot climate states. Rapes, murders, false testomonies in court, the Roman Catholic Church tricking the world and getting it to fornicate with her.
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These are but a few things in the BIBLE that are easily found in scripture as well as in today's headlines and news cast.

I guess this should prove that the Bible is truth - because you can see that everything I pointed out IS actually happening and it was prophesised thousands of years ago.

God Bless You

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Yes, it true that these things have been happening for thousands of years . . . BUT, not to this level that we are at right now. Has anyone dared to come to the US and attack us since our country was established? I'm not talking about Japan, I mean come right into the States and dare to attack us? Things are different than in the times before this era in time - yes?

The sun is getting closer to the earth and that never happened thousands of years ago. This is causing natural disasters throughout the entire world - yes?

The brothers of Isaac (Ishmael) are attacking everyone that helps Israel and don't believe in their god - yes? this has never happened in history.

The Bible tells us that Magog (now day Russia) will attack from the North --- what do the Headlines say?

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I too agree with Nikki, but I pointed out these things in my answer. I thought you only wanted proof that the prophecies in the Bible are happening to us right now . . . the cold, hard and provable facts. You can't deny that the things I've sited are cold, hard, and provable by your own standards facts.

I also wanted to add to Nikki's statement; Would anyone have ever thought in a trillion years that this country that claims to be founded and dilligent in God would condone "same sex marriages?"

See, things are different than there were thousands of years ago - even 10 years ago.

God Bless You

Answer 3

Show me ANYTHING that can stand up to that test over
even a mere, let's say, 100 years!
There are no 100% provable facts that mankind
can ever come up with (except the simpelest of
things - like a grape is purple, but even that is
a definition assigned to it - and God is much more
complex than we all are put together)!
God proves Himself through spiritual means.
It's about unmasking everything that is in the
way of finding God - one layer at a time, if
applicable.

Answer 4

What if I told you somethings else... That is Jesus is saving everbody... Yes, no one will be left out from Heaven... Isnt that what makes you to think "christianity" does not makes sense?.. Yes, I believe the "popular christianity" got it wrong... Are you willing to read the bible & interpretatiom from this perspective? ... I mean there is nothing new out there... But the way you perceive it can be new... Two perceptions that contradict each other can come out of a same source, one due to foolishness and the other wisdom... I came across this truth unexpectedly when I ran across the website below... Maybe it could shed some light and show that there are christians who believe that Love of God will save us all be it unbelievers, etc...

Let me give you a quote about love that you may not have come across :

“Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave (hell). It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot wash it away. If one were to give all the wealth of his house for love, it would be utterly scorned.”

"Love all people" --- :)

CAUTION : What you read from the website below could for ever change your life ...

P/S : You may end up falling in Love with God !

Answer 5

Christianity is all about FAITH. The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. How can you describe that with anything other than personal experience.
100% provable fact; I am a new person, the old is gone and all things have been made new. That's fact!

Answer 6

Without reference to the Bible is easy - just look around you - go out on the street and look into people's eyes. What are you seeing? Empty souls or people with quiet conviction that life is GREAT, complete, content and they know they are loved and have the support of that best of friends - Jesus. Talk to them - are they telling you life is good (even under adversity)? or do they tell you life is pointless, empty, futile? God can be found in so many places - just look - properly. Sit in a field, in a cafe, on the bus and look. And ask, quietly - for Our Lord to talk to you. Then be sure it will happen. But make sure you're listening! Don't dismiss the event as 'co-incidence' or 'chance'. God will talk clearly to us through events or other people. Open your mind, and wait - try prayer - it doesn't have to be formal, you know, 'Our Father' ,etc. Talk your own way and don't bargain with HIm. Be reasonable - ask for the strength to hear, to believe and it will happen.
Let me know....

Answer 7

If you want a really good read, you should try "The Evolution Cruncher" by Vance Ferrell. It contains thousands of real, scientific facts that show that evolution is scientifically impossible, and that the Earth is young and that there was a worldwide Flood about 4,400 years ago, thus proving that the bible story of Creation is scientifically accurate.

Answer 8

Well, Victoria, if you don't believe the bible, and you've read it twice, and as Christians, we don't convert, or force the gospel, only feed those that are hungry, I don't know how you could be convinced. You seem quite full of your own Pagan beliefs, not at all hungry for Christ way, so instead I will say: We believe Christ is the way, for it is written in the Holy Bible, the foundation of how we are supposed to live. We choose Christ, He is our redeemer. I will not pretend to know anything about your Pagan beliefs, so, instead, friend, just like you cannot force anyone to believe, niether can we. Christians are no different, really. Nothing I write can open your eyes to our beliefs, our truth, our way, you must be ready to embrace us to accept. My thoughts as a believer.

Answer 9

Ok Victoria, READ THE WHOLE THING.

We must have a starting point. We do have to look at everything around us and admit the fact that we exist, but then we will have to reason. Let's see the different kinds of being that exist out there.
First non-living beings, then living beings. Among livinig beings there are those with power only to reproduce themselves and eat; nothing else. Those beings are called plants. They DO NOT have the power to move, see, or to make decisions. Then animals, like plants they have the power to reproduce themselves but furthermore, they can see, move towards food and a mating partner and they have an intellect that allows them to make decisions. They do have imagination but only (I'll call it) BASIC imagination. They form images in their conscience but they cannot form them at will. Finally we come to another living being with power to eat and reproduce, like plants and animals; who can also see and move like animals do, and who also has an intellect to make decisions. This living being is the human. Also has an intellect and imagination but humans CAN in fact form images AT WILL ("Advanced" Imagination). However, humans can only form images of what has already been experienced, although arrayed in an unexperienced way. Now only humans want to live forever. I am not saying humans want to preserve their life, any animal wants that and even plants do. What I am saying is that only humans desire (can imagine) eternal life. This takes us to another conclusion: Only humans can form the CONCEPT of an ABSOLUTE and INFINTE. Again, I am not talking about the WORD absolute, I am talking about the CONCEPT as an idea or image. Only humans want INFINTE LOVE, ALL THE TRUTH, ETERNAL LIFE and so on. Why finite beings who can only imagine things that have been experienced can conceive the UNEXPERIENCED INFINITE? The best possible explanation is that there has to be a little of that infinite WITHIN humans, at least in some way. Nature is wise and does not waste anything. Giving "advanced" imagination to an animal like a fish, that can neither sing, nor paint, nor talk would be an infinte waste. And the fish would experience excruciating pain and frustration by not being able to exercise its "advanced" creative imagination. Then why mortal beings like humans can indeed conceive ETERNAL LIFE. The most reasonable answer would be that AT SOME POINT humans in fact had eternal life. Then, by the same token, now humans should not exist since they can conceive eternal life but they do not have it. Another reasonable conclussion would be that by some EXTRAORDINARY act of (let's call it) Love or Mercy, humans still exist. And then we have to come to the conclussion that at some point, humans MUST HAVE that eternal life so much yearned for back again, otherwise, there would be no point in that extraordinary act of love and mercy if humans would never again have eternal life. The fact that we lost our condition of eternal life must have been a COSMIC CATASTROPHE, and the recovery of that eternal life mandatorily has to be something in the same range of magnitude.
Now the spiritual part. I have only found in the bible the fact that The Infinite One created humans to His image and likeness, no wonder we are finite but still have the capacity to grasp the CONCEPT of INFINTE. Since thus we were created we enjoyed life everlasting, but somehow, very badly, we lost it. We were suppoussed to be destroyed but The Eternal One offered forgiveness out of pure love and promissed to restore us to the original condition of eternal life. The very same Eternal One became mortal and died (a human death, that is) so that we could be restored. Having God Himself walking in Galilee and dieing nailed to a stick must have been something unbelievable and still it is not fully understood by most Christians of all denominations. He DID NOT have to do so but he did. Only in the bible have I found the narration that corresponds to what I can attain with reason alone, and this is only 1% because of space constraints. It is more than enough evidence for me that the WHOLE biblie is NOT the only truth but the one most accurate and attainable by reason alone. Just my 2 cents.

Answer 10

Hi, for me I can only give you "my" personal experience:
I was raised in a non Christan home never went to church never read the bible, religion was not encouraged at all.
one night I had a dream in it God revealed himself to me , what I seen was a powerful light force in the darkness of the universe, But some how I knew it was God or his spirit, I seen small little lights proceeding out of it, this was such a life changing dream for me that I then read the bible and prayed if you are real let me know, God's Holy Spirit then began to open my eyes and I realized that he was real it changed my life and now I'm a born again spirit filled believer.

then later on I seen first hand "instant" miracles. 1. My aunt had M.S. diagnosed by Mayo's clinic documented she went for prayer was slain in the Spirit and woke up with feeling in her feet that she had no feeling in for 4 years. and a clear report from the clinic....
2. Later after my family became christains also : my brother had a blood clot the size of a lemon, my mom almost fainted when she seen it on his shin, she dropped to her knees and prayed in the name of Jesus every thime she used the Lords name it got smaller within 3 to 5 minutes it disspeared! we took him to a Dr, the next day who comfirmed it was a clot by the discoloration and bruise left were it was but he could not explain how it went away ..we know...
it's hard to explain till you experience it.