In the King Follett Discourse, Joseph Smith said, "My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same. And when I get to my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself."
Smith clearly references apothesis here.
I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18).
"For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10).
GOD is the same now as forever.
2007-10-09 10:17:34 · 9 answers · asked by lundstroms2004 6 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another" (King Follett Discourse).
Here GOD is mutuable.
Please elaborate.
2007-10-09 10:19:09 · update #1
Mountain,
1st, I did not get this from a preacher. I found this on my own.
2nd, The contradiction is not in apothesis per se, but in that GOD who is immutable got there through apothesis....which is evolution to Godhead. One cannot be immutable and also be an apothesized man.
2007-10-09 10:36:49 · update #2
THANK YOU PONO
For the background on the discourse.
However, the concept you speak of about GOD being once like us and then growing into an unmutuable creature who was always immutable is a contradiction.
How can one be immutable always, but evolve to that position?
2007-10-09 11:06:18 · update #3
there should not be an apostrophe...i mis-typed.
2007-10-09 11:08:15 · update #4
In full fairness, I would hardly call my prose style anywhere near a rant. I would consider it reasoned.
2007-10-10 02:05:28 · update #5
The King Follet Discourse is not reconginized by the church to be an accurate portrayal of the speech. It was a version of the speech taken by a couple people taking notes, and than later compiled together more than ten years after Smith's death. It is considered very innacurate to the actual speech. In fact one author (Searle) estimates that current versions contain roughly 30% of the actual address. The notes were not full notes, and words and sentences were put together like a puzzle with missing pieces. We do not believe that we will take God's place, but we do believe that we can be LIKE God. Not God himeself. He will ALWAYS be God of this world and universe. He IS God, and that will never change. He is immortal. From what i understand- and please don't quote me because i can be very wrong- is that God-was once like us. And had to go through a mortal exsistance. Than once he was exhalted, He became God and created the universe and earth. It is much like our own fathers-which is what Heavenly Father is- our father- our MORTAL fathers were once children, and teenagers and young adults. Why? Because without the same life experiences, how could he be expected to lead and care for us. How can one teach and guide without ever having learned or experienced it? I would assume that even a Heavenly Father would have the same requirements. The LDS religion has many doctrine that answer age old questions. Like, why are we here- where did we come from, and in this instance- Who is God, and why is there God. But like i said before, the speech in which you quote form, is highly inaccurate and should not be taken literally or as official church doctrine.
EDIT- thank you for your comment- But i would like to point out that the refernce scriptures that you are refering to (mormon 9)(moroni 8) is in reference to the trinity. When people believe that God takes on different forms to fulfill roles as both Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. We believe that they are seperate beings and that God is God- not Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and that he doesn't change to become either one. It does not refer to his exhaltation as God. i guess that is where the misunderstanding is coming from- but good question.
2007-10-09 10:48:11 · answer #1 · answered by pono7 5 · 4⤊ 1⤋
Tell ya what,
Get the Missionary Discussions, Get Baptised, Be Confirmed and Recieved the Holy Ghost,
And Read that Rant you just posted again. You've interpreted things out of context.
Simply you need the Holy Ghost to help you make sense. Furthermore, King Follet Discourse is not a cannonized item of scripture.
It is a poorly recorded quote of a number of things Joseph Smith was teaching and someone attempted to puzzle it together and did not do a very proficient job of it.
I would suggest that if you want to cite items of LDS doctrine, quote Gordon B. Hinckley. He is the current Prophet and has the information pertaining to "THIS DAY" in Human History.
God does not change, but he gives us information Line upon Line, Precept on Precept, Here and Little and There A Little.
He does change things on earth as he no longer requires us to live the law of moses and make sacrifices like mentioned in the old testiment.
2007-10-09 12:32:36 · answer #2 · answered by ASE Master 3 · 1⤊ 1⤋
Do you believe in the Trinity?
God, supposedly, is manifest in three personages. One of those is Jesus Christ. Did Christ change? Yes, He most certainly did! So, therefore, God changed.
Or did He?
Is "God" a person, or is "God" a concept/calling/position? If God is more of a concept than a "man", then "God" can't change, even if those who are called God do change.
2007-10-09 16:18:02 · answer #3 · answered by mormon_4_jesus 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Your rambling makes no sense, and there is no point to anything you just said. It is saying that God is the same, always. The first part is stating our belief that we can become Gods one day too, but we will not replace God, just become equal to Him. There is no contradiction in your statements, just a desperate attempt to make it seem like there is one.
2007-10-09 11:03:13 · answer #4 · answered by . 7 · 2⤊ 1⤋
God doesn't change, but God can have more of his children born into the world. In that way he is further "exalted." Just because He has more children and His existence goes on doesn't make Him changing.
Learn about the more basic principles of the LDS church from the source instead of getting stuff from an anti-LDS preacher.
2007-10-09 10:26:24 · answer #5 · answered by mountain_walrus 2 · 2⤊ 3⤋
We have always know him as God, He is our God and will always be our God. That will never change. We did not know of him (probably because we weren't created yet!) before He was a god...
This is very deep and to understand any of it you would have to know more about the eternal nature of God...
If you really want to know more, email me and I will expound.
To me, there is no contradiction here.
2007-10-09 10:38:26 · answer #6 · answered by Anonymous · 4⤊ 1⤋
Is Joseph Smith saying that he is the son of God?
if so, is there any reason for people to wonder why Mormons are at the very least distrusted?
2007-10-09 10:24:38 · answer #7 · answered by Anonymous · 3⤊ 3⤋
Interesting. Get ready for verbal gymnastics.
2007-10-09 10:21:13 · answer #8 · answered by Bible warrior 5 · 3⤊ 1⤋
Why did you put the apostrophe in the plural of Mormon?
2007-10-09 10:21:03 · answer #9 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 4⤋