Mormons, The Book of Mormon was allegedly originally written in "Reformed Egyptian" (Mormon 9:32)...

Question

Is there any archaeological and / or linguistic evidence in existence to support the claim that this language was?

Source references, please?

Granny Annie -

Thanks for your answer.

Also, why would a 19th century AMERICAN translate golden plates allegedly written in "Reformed Egyptian" into ye olde King James English?

"Another difficulty we have with Smith's 'translation' is the presence in it of at least 27,000 words from the King James Version of the Bible. Does it seem likely that passages on the golden plates would be translated by divine inspiration in language precisely like that of the King James Bible?" - AA Hoekema, The Four Major Cults, pg.85.

If, in regard to "Reformed Egyptian" the original language was lost (Mormon 9:34), how could the following testimony of Professor Charles Anthon in Pearl of Great Price, regarding the genuiness of the characters taken from the golden plates, be valid?

According to Joseph Smith's autobiography, Anthon declared that the translation was "correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian" (Pearl of Great Price, pg.55)

Jack Copeland -

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

So, are you saying that you don't believe in the veracity of the Bible?

There is plenty of solid archaeological & linguistic evidence to prove the existence of Hebrew, Aramaic & Koine Greek. What about "Reformed Egyptian"? NONE, as far as I am aware.

In addition, there is archaeological evidence to prove the HISTORICAL veracity of the Bible, and none - unless you can prove otherwise - for The Book of Mormon.

Also, biblical prophecy made 1000's of years ago concerning God's dealings with the nation of Israel has been fulfilled in recent history (the re-establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, for example). THAT is an objective, historical fact which proves the truth of GOD'S word.

Jack, with respect, you make a SWEEPING GENERALISATION concerning the PROFESSING church. Only God is omniscient, Jack, and He knows the good works of those who are TRULY His.

Your remarks concerning Mormon works, frankly, smack of the same kind of self-righteousness which characterises OTHER salvation-by-works "Christian" heresies such as the (so-called) Jehovah's Witnesses. These who conveniently generalise concerning the professing Christian church, choosing to highlight the wrongs committed both by those who ARE Christ's & those who CLAIM to be, while ignoring the MANY good works done through Christians down the centuries.

Which group of people were instrumental in abolishing the slave trade, Jack? Mormons? J.W's? Please check out the history books. There are PLENTY of good works carried out by Christians even today, Jack, but God forbid that we should ever boast in ANYTHING except the cross of Christ.

Yes, good works have a place in the life of the TRUE Christian (James 2:14 - 18). However, a diligent study of God's TRUE word, the Bible, reveals that a man is justified by faith with works as EVIDENCE of that true faith.

"Good works" such as humanitarian aid, etc. ALONE cannot justify a man before God, Jack. Muslims perform many charitable deeds, yet reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His sin-atoning death & resurrection. Will they receive salvation on the day of judgement? Not according to the Bible (John 3:16 - 18) To believe the TRUTH about Jesus is of paramount importance, Jack.

Will God save those who subscribe to a false gospel of works salvation? A Christianized form of freemasonry, which requires those who would seek to achieve "exaltation to godhood" to participate in temple marriage, even though the Lord Jesus & the apostle Paul BOTH clearly taught that singleness was preferable for those who could accept it?

There are, no doubt, MANY religious hypocrites among orthodox Christian denominations. God knows all things, and He will judge & condemn such on that day, Jack, along with every Christian heresy and false religious system in existence. Only those who are TRULY His, who trust in the grace & mercy of God and His FREE GIFT of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ & His perfect, ALL-SUFFICIENT work on the cross to pay for our sins, will escape.

For the record, I don't drink or smoke. I tithe every month. I have given out literally thousands of Christian tracts detailing the TRUE way of salvation. I have - by the grace of God and in His power - endeavoured to be a faithful Christian witness to others in both speech and conduct. I pray for at least half-an-hour- virtually every day. Yet NONE of these things justify me in God's sight. HE justifies ME, through faith in His Son. THAT'S who my boast is in.

May God be gracious to you, Jack.

Mormon 4 Jesus -

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Please, how does the link that you gave prove the existence of the "Reformed Egyptian" from which The Book of Mormon was allegedly translated? I can still see no solid evidence presented.

The article also comments on Papyrus Amherst 63, saying that it "..seems to offer something very much like 'reformed Egyptian'" - surely the author does not mean the same from which The Book of Mormon was allegedly translated, as - AGAIN - there is NO archaeological evidence to support the existence of the golden plates.

Hiby 76 -

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Regarding the objective evidence re Christ's resurrection, etc. the source & reference which I would point to is the Bible. There are numerous extant manuscripts, as well as archaeological evidence to support the historical veracity of GOD'S word. Both the Old Testament & New Testament were written in KNOWN languages.

Why would God give another "revelation", without any linguistic, manuscript, or archaeological evidence to establish it's credibility, as He has done with the Bible? That sounds terribly inconsistent to me.

Answer 1

Carl, trying to prove Mormonism would be like attempting to prove any Christian religion. Where are all of the original texts from the Bible? Why are there so many letters from the Peter, Paul, and John, yet we have few if any letters from other apostles? Why is there four hundred years between the last book of the Old Testament and the New Testament?

Now let's talk about modern times. Why is God not providing revelations for his church? With everything going down the tube spiritually, do we not need his revelations more now then ever? And, which church is his church? Is God a god of confusion, or does it matter if your services are on Saturday or Sunday? Or, do we baptize or not? If so, do we sprinkle, pour, or submerge? Or, do we have musical instruments in church service, and if so, are there any limitations on different types? Do we allow female leaders in church? And, the big one that some churches are debating about is homosexuality. You see, there are a lot of questions about any religion. What church is true? If a church is true, then all the others wrong? Or is God a god of mass confusion and disorder? It doesn't matter how you worship God, or have services, or perform ordinances. Let every person do what they want. That sounds like a real good way of following God and keeping the commandments.

I challenged the churches of the world to follow the example of Jesus Christ and keep the commandments of his Father. Generally speaking, I have not seen a church demonimation as a whole practice what they preach, except The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I'm not saying we are perfect. But, if you will write down on a piece of paper what a denomination believes in, and on another piece of paper write what they practice, you will see the differences.

The Mormons tithe. Our buildings are paid for in full before they are built. We have over 50,000 missionaries serving two year missions all over the world. We don't smoke or drink. If we have a major sin, it would be we like to eat. When the Katrina refugees were being transferred here, the Red Cross called the church of assistance. At the drop of a hat, we turned out in mass to set-up beds and things. We volunteered over the next week to provide assistance as the refugees arrived. I didn't see a large group from any other church. We have responded to other major castrophies in the world. We are organized to respond quicker then governments do. If we are not the true church, then the other churches would do well to follow our examples.

Answer 2

Smith claimed to translate the Bible anew, but his translation included errors from the KJV that were openly published at the time the KJV was. Smith never knew. And he added prophesies that he would come as a prophet-not in the Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek versions of the Bible! He was the author of the greatest con of all time. Nothing is proved. Book of Mormon was bs-no white civilization ever existed in the Americas before Columbus. Book of Abraham a fraud--it was a papyri from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The man lied. A con man. He lied to get women and girls to marry him repeatedly. Lied about the Moroni stuff, lied about white civilization in the Americas anywhere. Mormons look so pitifully suckered for believing a huckster.... Million of people don't disappear and take their crops, tools, buildings, animals, records, AND RIVERS with them! Come on.

Answer 3

On 14 March 1966 the author of the book referenced below asked Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith, 'Does the Church have any Egyptian or Hebrew writing that was found in America? If so, where may it be seen?' Pres. Smith did not seem to know anything about such writing because all he did was to urge the author to prayerfully read the Book of Mormon.

I understand there is not a single written trace of all those Israelites in America who wrote in 'reformed Egyptian'. No one has seen 'reformed Egyptian' on the gold plates except Joseph Smith and his 3 witnesses (who only claimed to have seen a vision of the plates in the woods - by faith, as D&C 17.5 says). There is, however, a way to check the translation Joseph Smith made. He copied a few characters off and they have been reproduced in various publications. (No Egyptian or Hebrew scholar takes them seriously though.)

On 27 November 1967 the original Egyptian papyri from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price were given to the LDS Church by the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. These are GENUINE Egyptian papyri, which Smith bought from Mr Chandler while in Kirtland, Ohio oin 1835. They are confirmed as Egyptian 'Book of the Dead' funeral papyri and have NOTHING to do with Abraham! So Joseph Smith's claims regarding genuine Egyptian documents are false. I hold out even less hope of accuracy with undiscoverd 'reformed Egyptian'.

Answer 4

Sorry, the Angel Moroni did the translating and Joseph merely took down the words. He did claim he got to see what they looked like and Moroni told him what the language was.
Sadly, when the golden plates had been transcribed by Joseph, Moroni took them back to heaven. So there's absolutely NO evidence of their existence in an archaeological sense.

Personally I've always kinda wondered. If those plates were so seminal to the dispersion of the truth why were they buried in a pile of dirt on a hillside for a couple of thousand years? Why didn't Moroni being them down from on high, have Joseph do his secretarial schtick, then take 'em back?

Oh, and why would the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel be speaking Egyptian of ANY dialect when they had a perfectly good language all their very own? And had been free of Egypt for more than 4 centuries before the Assyrians came down like a wolf on the fold with his cohorts all gleaming in purple and gold and clobbered the Northern Kingdom of Israel (which is where the Ten Lost Tribes were from).

Hmmmmmmmmm?

Answer 5

I'm still pretty new in the gospel but from my own understanding that language was taught from generation to generation specifically to record those sacred records. I think to keep it from ending in the wrong hands and tampering with the truth. When I thought about joseph smith who many call a false prophet. He wrote an entire book of 522 pages containing wars, historical time eras, revelations and visions that corresponded exactly with the bible, just so many things you can see when you read the book that gave me evidence ok theres definitely something here. and then the location and time period he wrote this, where the internet or libraries full of information didnt even exsist in his town. I knew either satan helped him write this or god did. I prayed and received a heavenly peace come over me bear wtiness that it was true and he was a latter-day prophet. Scholars have analyzed that book to every word trying to find fault because it makes people so mad to know he did this. modern day revelation still exists and the book of mormon is a witness of it. If you doubt then pray. it worked for me my friends

Answer 6

No. Why should there be?

Does the fact that the Bible was originally written in a language known to archaeologists and linguists augment its credibility? Not in my book. If your faith in the Bible as the word of God depends even in small part on what the archaeologists know today, and what the linguists know today, then you do not have faith, my friend. There are many important evidences of the Bible, but they do not come from archaeology and the study of linguistics. I hope you do not try to "prove" the Bible in this manner.

Inconsistent to bring forth the Book of Mormon in a way different from the Bible? You have one data point (the Bible), and you see a trend? Reminds me of the joke, "I know all Indians walk single file, because that is the way the lone Indian I saw was walking." God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush, but that doesn't mean that God is inconsistent if He chooses another way of speaking to man.

Your question is irrelevant to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

Answer 7

Well i guess that depends what you consider evidence. Obviously the plates themselves are unavailable. the tracings are probably somewhere. However, considering the Book of Mormon specifically says that they called this language Reformed Egyptian and that it would be lost when the Book of Mormon is revealed, its hard to say how you would identify it with a language we dont have any other information on.

However, if you are looking for linguistic evidence, there are plenty of Egyptian names. Pahoran, Nephi, several others. All you really have to do is do a web search of Egyptian and the Book of Mormon and im sure you can find tons of articles on the subject by FARMS and other groups like that.

If you want more specifics, youll probably have to do your own research. this is a yahoo question not a library.

Answer 8

Any evidence to support this language? Absolutely not because there is none. No samples of this language have been uncovered in North America. There is no evidence found where these people should have lived.
You want a source, any archaeological work on North America is a good start.

Answer 9

I may not be able to answer all of your questions but there's one i can SPECULATE on. When Adam transgressed he had blood. I think the blood only represents death, and the reason Jesus had blood is because he COULD die not because he was a sinner, Remember god said if you eat the fruit you will die. Well, they ate the fruit and the blood represented that they were mortals. Of course blood is a representation of sin and it's also a representation of the atonement. A single symbol can represent many aspects.

Answer 10

Would you mind providing absolute proof that Christ in fact walked on the waters of Galilee? Please also prove that Christ actually died and then overcame death and rose from the Grave. Please provide sources and references...please.

Clearly, you can't provide me with any such evidence. Does that mean that they didn't happen? Does that mean that you're foolish if you believe in them?

True or False:
1. God knows all of his prophets (living and dead)?
2. God answers prayers?
3. If you pray humbly, sincerely, and with real intent to God, seeking truth, he will tell you that the Book of Mormon is true (if it is true) or False (if it is False)
4. You will approach God and ask him.