Part 2 - How can catholics be christian if....?

Question

"You can't limit the answers you will accept to the Bible, and
the fact that you're trying to do that indicates a flawed understanding of Catholicism."

- Then that means catholics dont follow God's word and put other texts aside it? That alone makes you NOT christian, because now youre not following Jesus' teaching, but other man made teachings!! Thank you for proving my point.

- "We also believe that Mary, the mother of God, ascended directly to heaven and is not dead in a grave somewhere. "

Where in the Bible does it say that?

- "All other Christian religions formed out of the Catholic church - yours are not the original church set up by Jesus - does that make YOU not Christian?"

- Where in the Bible does it declare Jesus was catholic? It doesnt (duh), now, those who follow Christ alone without the influence of the catholic church or pope, protestants, those who choose to follow Christ alone, why are we persecuted by the catholic church?

I did the math...one CHURCH. Did you do the reading? one CHURCH...not one CATHOLIC CHURCH...not one church led by the POPE, one CHURCH. And He was talking about the body. Hence in the Bible where it says asks do you not know that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Answer 1

I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. (John 16:12-13)

The Catholic Church does not use Holy Scripture as the only basis of doctrine. It could not. The early Catholic church existed before and during the time that the New Testament was written (by Catholics).

There were hundreds of Christian writings during the first and second centuries. Which New Testament writings would become official was not fully decided until about 400 C.E.

Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit was guiding the early church (and is guiding the church today) to make the correct choices about things like:
+ The Holy Trinity (which is also only hinted at in the Bible)
+ Going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday (which is actually directly against one of the Ten Commandments)
+ The Communion of Saints
+ Which writings include in the New Testament?

Things that are even more modern like
+ Slavery is bad. Slavery is never declared evil in the Bible. This was one of the justifications for slavery in the Confederate States.
+ Democracy is good. The Bible states that either God should be the leader of the nation like Israel before the kings or kings should be the leader, "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's." This was talked about a lot during the American Revolution.

This second source of doctrine is called Apostolic Tradition.

Do Christians who do not allow the continuing guiding force of the Holy Spirit to make their beliefs more and more perfect, still endorse slavery as Colossians 3:22 commands, "Slaves, obey your human masters in everything"?

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. (1 Corinthians 11:2)

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 80 and following: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.htm#80

With love in Christ.

Answer 2

Again I must defer to Father K. His answer, while a little cut and dried, was also straightforward and to the point!

The ONE Church that Father K. and many of the others referred to is the one confessed in the Creeds as "one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" and "the Communion of Saints". This Church is made up of ALL and ONLY believers (regardless of denomination), living, dead, and will be added to by all who will come to faith; those now living and those yet to be born. The head of this Church is our Lord Jesus Christ.

To read any more into Scripture than this mocks God's Word.

Your friend in Christ.
Mark

Answer 3

If you insist on defining Catholicism in relation to your totally fabricated, non-authoratative, late day protestant traditions, then Catholicism will never meet your standards.

If you do the research and study the history, then you have no choice but to accept that fact that Catholic Christianity was the first and only type of Christianity existing in the world for around 1500 years.

Addressing your other comments:

Catholics do consider the bible to be the inerrant and inspired written word of God. We don't believe the Holy Spirit is responsible for the 50,000 widely varying protestant interpretations of it, as God is not the author of confusion.

Mary was assumed (translated) into heaven by the power of God, as most believe Enoch was. She did not ascend to heaven by her own power. Revelation 11 &12 refers to Mary's Assumption, as well as her coronation as Queen of Heaven. You simply don't understand scripture well enough to see that.

Jesus remains the head of his one, true, universal church, the only church he ever founded, authorized, empowered, and personally guaranteed.

The Church has been known as Catholic since about 107 AD, in the writings of St. Ignatius.

If Jesus remains at the head of his church, and the church is known as Catholic, then even you might be able to "connect the dots" and come to the correct conclusion.

Answer 4

I guess you are talking about "practicing" Catholics, right? I believe that they believe in God and Jesus, but also a few extra figures that seemingly get high importance in their lives. Their leader is the Pope. He gets the orders from God and passes it down to the people. Do they worship the Pope? No I dont think so, but I would call him the "leader." I am sure to get thumbs down due to the fact that my opinions and how I see the Catholic Church will not go along with the Catholic viewpoint. I'm afraid I missed part 1. I looked for it but have failed to find it. Let me know the link and I will take a look at it.

Answer 5

OK- since you picked up on my answer - it doesn't say ANY SECT in the bible NOT EVEN Christian!

The rest of what I said was taught in sunday school and bible study (in a Baptist church even) - sorry, darling, but you cannot divorce the history of the religion from the religion.

Since when have you, personally, been persecuted by Catholics? And don't say on here - persecution is loss of home, lifestyle, reputation, family, physical harm - not a bunch of people on a website telling you that you are wrong.

So, you will have to look at the history - the church Jesus told his followers to create, the method for spreading his word was called Catholic because the word means "whole" and Universal"- the Church Universal. The church for ALL.

This is Jesus's church, and they follow Jesus.

You have yet to answer MY question - if you are not part of the church Jesus created, but of an offshoot, are you truly christian?

Pilgrim - any church with a leader, or head (minister, pastor, etc) acting in the teaching place of Jesus is also following an antichrist, by your definition.

Father K - excellent points about the church existing before the scriptures, scriptures ratified by the church!

Answer 6

Those that follow the teachings of Jesus are Christians. The fact that Catholics also study other prophets or leaders for God is insignificant to that.

Besides, There is a reading in the New Testament where Jesus' followers were upset that others were preaching about God but were not in their group and ask Jesus if he'd like them to stop them. Jesus said, "no, those that are not against you, are with you..."

So Jesus himself knew that those others whom are given the gift of God to teach God's will is not an evil thing.

I don't know why you think or know that the Catholic leaders are persecuting anyone, but I think you are wrong to lump all people with a group of the few that are doing wrong.

Answer 7

IN the Bible, it never says JESUS is a catholic, Christians is formed from the word Christ.This is the basis for CHRISTIANS and CATHOLIC CHURCH.
The point you have proved is less than nothing.
As for why protestants are called Christians is they factored from Catholicism but are following the Christian teachings.
Again ,you fail to prove anything.
Is there a grave marker for Mary, haven't seen one or for st Paul or St. Peter,and so on.
Again you prove nothing of value.
Why are you so scared of the Catholic or Christian teachings? Why is it you worry about other people that follow these teachings. Just because you are too blind to see does not mean others cannot see the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Your question and it's gibberish have proven nothing but that you may be a disciple of analupians

Answer 8

We DO follow God's Word. But the Bible itself says that there is a lot more to what Jesus taught than what's in the book. (John 21:25) The Bible itself also says that we're supposed to follow the Apostles' teachings that were both written AND oral. (2 Thess 2:15) So the only way to FULLY follow the Bible is to also follow Sacred Tradition. And that is found in the Catholic Church. Most protestants have purposely rejected Sacred Tradition, so they are the ones not following the Bible.

Regarding Mary's ascension into heaven, the Bible says that it's possible for God to take a person directly into heaven -- remember Elijah? Mary's specific ascension isn't written in Scripture, but neither is her death. If you insist that the end of Mary's life on earth must be documented to be believed, then you must think she's still alive. And you must think that John and Paul and half the other disciples are still alive, too, because their death isn't recorded. Neither is your birth, for that matter -- does that mean you were never born?

Of course not!

The fact of the matter is that the Bible doesn't record every minute detail of every person who was part of Jesus' life. We Catholics know from Sacred Tradition what happened to Mary -- the Sacred Tradition passed on to us from the Apostles themselves, which the Bible tells us to follow. You do not have that advantage because you go to a church that rejects Sacred Tradition.

Catholic means "universal." Jesus is universal, saving people from all nations. So in that sense, Jesus is Catholic. But you have to remember, we Catholics didn't have to delineate ourselves as Catholics until people split up the Church. In the early days, everybody was Christian and everybody knew what that meant. When people started picking and choosing what they were going to believe in, it got muddy and complicated.

Catholics do NOT persecute other Christians. There have been times that suspicious, cultish interpretations of Christianity have been persecuted, and rightfully so. I am sure that you do not belong to one of these false movements, so you have never, ever, EVER suffered any form of persecution from any Catholic. We consider you our brethren in the Lord -- separated brethren, but you guys are the ones who left.

Answer 9

"Sola scriptura" was a man-made doctrine, a necessary maneuver by Martin Luther to undermine Roman authority and legitimize Protestantism. But it isn't "biblical", unless one very carefully interprets a few specific passages. Luther conveniently ignored the fact that the body of scripture was determined by a human decision, a council as "Catholic" as the body Luther condemned.

To argue that the councils were "man-made traditions" ignores the Council of Jerusalem, which absolved gentile Christians of Torah observance, as documented in the Acts of the Apostles. This was a major shift in Christianity, yet it's "biblical". But somehow, subsequent councils by the same church are not legitimate simply because they weren't written in too? The Church decided that the Christian Bible was "done" and thereby condemned itself to irrelevance? I guess it would have made better sense to keep on writing then.

And even though Luther insisted that the Bible is inviolable, he freely picked and chose which verses mattered and which didn't. He dumped the Apocrypha because it was doctrinally inconvenient, even though it had been part of Christian scripture since its beginning. (He wanted to drop James and Revelation too but couldn't find an excuse to do it.)

Luther's reforms were needed, and his efforts to avoid becoming just another "heretic" are understandable, but his doctrines were political maneuvers just as human as the decrees of his opponents in Rome. There is fault to share, and Catholics and Protestants who deny each other's Christianity are being dishonest.

Answer 10

Are you so desperate for validation that you feel that calling Catholics "wrong" makes you "right" somehow? Catholics are Christians because their religion is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

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