Question for everyone who cares about others... it's long so if your here for two points, don't bother

Question

I believe that both the Koran and the Bible have too many absurdities, hypocrisies, inconsistencies and contradictions to be considered the word of any god. People for or against the religions of these books can both find passages that support their position. My questions are, “If either of these books were actually the true word of god, then would it not be virtually impossible for a mere human being to find all of these mistakes?” Would a true god make such blatantly obvious mistakes? Would “he” purposely make his desires so obscure and open for misinterpretation and debate? Would this god really be such a cruel, jealous, vindictive, and irrational control freak? I don’t think these traits are conducive to a loving creator. I don’t understand how otherwise intelligent people can believe in these books or their god. I think that these beliefs are a big reason why there will never be peace in this world. (continued)

My belief is so strong that I am unable to make myself think otherwise. I am expected to be tolerant of all people. I try, but I think that it is irresponsible to be this way in the face of such negative consequences. I’ve tried reasoning. I’ve resorted to sarcasm out of frustration, but I think it might take something more drastic to initiate a change. I don’t know what that something might be, but it could not involve violence and still be beneficial to the necessary outcome. Does anyone have any real ideas that might help alleviate the problems that religions pose to the happiness of everyone?

To mel – Perhaps I do let religion impose on my happiness. I see how it hurts and kills so many other people and I have empathy for other people. I know religion gives you and many others hope and a reason to live, but do you not care about the pain of innocent children for example, who are suffering horribly so that you can deal with your fear of death. I think that’s what it boils down to? I tried not to bash any religion in my question. I tried to be as respectful as I could. If you feel that religion is merely a scapegoat then you just don’t get it.

To Tianrui – I agree, the brain can be a very harmful place; however, it is the only source of a solution. A headache is a small price to pay for a solution to the problems religion imposes on this world.

To Julien – Which children’s success are you referring to? While a bad situation might inspire an individual to accomplish great things, what good does this do for millions of children born in impoverished third-world countries who starve to death before they even attain the age of seven days? These children might have never had to suffer these days but for the fact that the missionaries sent to these countries to help are not allowed by their church to pass out simple birth control.

keri gee - Would you at least admit that there are many people who do think the Bible and the Koran are the words of God? You say they were at least inspired by God so lets not dwell on a technicality. You say it “gives insight and knowledge” but, only if it not interpreted literally. When is one expected to know which parts are to be taken metaphorically or literally? Again, why the obscurities? People answering this question are intelligent enough to know the difference, but what about the less intelligent people? Are they supposed to suffer for their inability to comprehend? You say religions aren’t the only vehicles for an intolerant world view. I agree, but don’t you think they should not be one of them at all? If anything, religions should be a crystal clear example of unquestioned tolerance. Agree?

ROBERT P – What do you think I might be doing that could be considered preventing him from pouring mercy on me? And what is stopping “him” from pouring mercy on millions of people who are suffering so horribly that my life looks like a walk in the park? If your Bible had anything at all in it worth reading it would not take searching for the proper translation or version. A true God would have made this all unnecessary. I am not concerned with an imaginary God and “his” so called mercy. I would like to see people stop using this God Delusion as an excuse to cause untold suffering to the many people of this planet who did nothing to deserve the treatment they receive from these people in the name of God.

Somebody – If you have studied the Bible for over 30 years then you must know way more than I or most other people about its content. You say that, “life itself is full of absurdities, hypocrisies, inconsistencies, and contradictions.” Could you provide some specific examples for me please? You claim that the scripture must be perceived likewise in order to address these issues. I think that the scripture should elucidate, quantify, and clearly explain the truth so that everyone has an opportunity to learn and understand it. You mention misunderstandings within a family and how the love remains despite misunderstandings. I’ll agree, and I would also like to point out that most loved ones will forgive each other’s transgressions despite the absence of an apology. You want a specific example of a vindictive and irrational control freak. (continued)

The God you worship threatens to eternally torture people for transgressions they make during the course of their life. Is that a fine example of tolerance, forgiveness, love, or understanding? How long would a family survive with a father who was this immoral? If there was a God who possessed the power to do this and actually followed through with it, then that is a stereotypical definition of a vindictive and irrational control freak. We are expected to first interpret and understand the words contained in an ancient text that has been piece-mealed together, interrelated, interpreted, and translated by people of questionable origin, intelligence and motives, next we are to believe in this literature or else suffer eternal damnation. Some parts are meant to be taken literally, figuratively, or metaphorically, and nobody seems to be able to agree what parts are to be taken in which way. (continued)

You ask, what is obscure about, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” and “Give and it shall be given unto you.” What if your neighbor wants nothing more in life but to do harm unto you and your family? Are you allowed to defend yourself or your wife and children? What if in so doing you find yourself in a kill or be killed situation. Will you be eternally punished by your God for killing in defense of yourself or your loved ones? Will you be eternally punished for not defending yourself or your loved ones? In either case, will you be expected to keep on loving your neighbor as yourself? It seems like a lose, lose situation. You say God is cruel to cruel people in the Old Testament, and that is the nature of justice. God is cruel to innocent children and animals who never harmed anyone in any way. (continued)

Not even counting the estimated thirty million men, women, and children who drowned in “Noah’s flood,” Leviticus could be summarized as an animal sacrifice bloodbath, and in verses 10:1 through 10:3 Aaron’s two children are “sacrificed” for God’s enjoyment. They are burned to death right in front of their father. Family values? You say without justice there can be no peace. I would say that the religions of the world have all proven that they are unjust and that is a leading contribution to the reasons why this world has and never will experience peace. You are living for a day that will never come. All that you will ever know occurs during this life. If you weren’t afraid of death, you might be able to help contribute to a more fulfilling life that involves less suffering for the vast majority.

Somebody – I became an Atheist as the result of years of study in the fields of philosophy, history, sociology, psychology, and theology. The more I learned about these fields of knowledge, the more skeptical I became that any of the many religions were credible in any way, shape, or form. I also found many of the content within books such as the Bible and the Koran to be ludicrous, intolerant, violent, unethical, immoral, absurd, and too wide open for interpretation. You say you never made the claim that, “The scripture must be perceived likewise in order to address these issues.” You said, and I quote, “Life itself, humanity, is full of absurdities, hypocrisies, inconsistencies and contradictions. How can scripture address these issues without being first perceived likewise?” You go on to make a far fetched assumption and wrongly accuse me of employing a tool of deception to avoid answering your question. (continued)

Additionally, I have no political agenda. Anyone who reads your words would find it obvious that were implying that your question was merely a form of reinforcing your claim. Nevertheless; to avoid further discussion regarding this misunderstanding, I will just reiterate my answer to your question, “I think that the scripture should elucidate, quantify, and clearly explain the truth so that everyone has an opportunity to learn and understand it.” In other words, I don’t see any need to make the scriptures mimic humanity itself, which according to you is full of, is full of absurdities, hypocrisies. I just asked for you to provide some examples. You didn’t even do that. You very politician like, sidestepped the question and moved on to another topic. You may think the answer to your question is obvious enough, but perhaps I am not as intelligent as you and need to be informed. If you would please do this I would be grateful. (continued)

You accuse me of trying to muddy the waters by pitting against each other the concepts of justice and mercy expressed in the Bible because they seem contradictory to me. You ask, how do they contradict? You go on to say that there is no need for mercy if there is no law and where there is no law, there is no justice and where there is no justice, and there is no hope. You’re not a lawyer are you? Many laws in the Bible and in the real world are absurd and immoral. Additionally, the punishments are often absurd and immoral as well. I don’t need a law to tell me the difference between right and wrong. This ability is innate in all mammals. I have a strong moral and ethical system that I follow quite faithfully, and without the fear of punishment or reward as a factor in any way. (continued)

Do you believe that justice is being served by your God in sending me to eternal punishment for simply not believing that your God exists or that the Bible is a sick joke written by illiterate peasants in a lame attempt to explain life to other ignorant peasants?

Julien – I agree with your observation about our species growing smarter. However, I wonder what you might be referring to when you say we are also growing stronger and more capable. Our increase in intelligence seems to have just as many drawbacks as advantages. We are destroying our home; planet earth’s ability to support all life. We are the most superstitious, greedy, self-centered, and destructive species that we know of. Look around you. Do you think the intelligent scientists who warn us of the dangers of global warming are wrong? This is just one example of the harm we do. There are countless others. You are more optimistic than I am regarding the future. I think such an optimistic outlook may be based on ignorance. Please don’t take offence at that remark. I readily admit to being ignorant myself. I think anyone who doesn’t is arrogant. (continued)

Regarding the future; it might be interesting to know what parts of the Bible are actually missing and how this has impacted the religions that use it. But, that is not a subject that I wish to go into depth on because we all know that it was translated, edited, and revised many times in its history. Much of its contents were not even introduced until well after the events they describe were hundreds of years old. I would not rely on this book for anything of significance with regards to truth. If I did, my opinion of it would be even lower than it already is. I’m sorry if my level of thinking is not very high in your opinion; I’m doing the best with what I have to work with. Your comments regarding birth control are curious. How does this topic relate to a successful economy? In what ways were the conditions worse in third world countries 6,000 years ago? (continued)

In my attempt at trying to think about human direction, purpose and future on a larger scale than the suffering of a few people in third world countries I can’t help wondering what you consider a few people. Over 4 million people died from starvation last year. That’s early 8 people per minute. Most of them were children under the age of five years old. Had their parents been supplied with birth control rather than just a lame lecture about abstinence by a Christian missionary, these children might have never had to be born just to suffer and die without knowing a moment of joy, fun, or happiness. (http://library.thinkquest.org/C002291/high/present/stats.htm) There are so many factors that are involved in world economy that even people with doctoral degrees in this subject don’t know how to solve the problems outlined at the aforementioned website.

Somebody,
You say, "I think that the scripture should elucidate, quantify, and clearly explain the truth so that everyone has an opportunity to learn and understand it." I have found that the teachings of Jesus do just that when applied.
I respond, Perhaps you have been able to convince yourself that the teachings of Jesus elucidated, quantified, and clearly explained the truth, but many people such as me are not so gullible as to find simple ethics twisted in the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic a rational reason to believe that this man was a God.

You say, "...I would also like to point out that most loved ones will forgive each other’s transgressions despite the absence of an apology." Are you married? I am and know that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard anyone say in a long time. You should study up on your psychology a bit more.
I respond, Yes, I too am married. I guess one of the differences between us is the fact that I am happily married. I’m sorry that you’re obviously not. However, I can clearly see why. If you carry a grudge until you receive your apology you may find yourself in a position where one of your loved ones dies and the chance to understand and relate to them is gone forever. Did you learn how to be this forgiving from reading your Bible? Perhaps you might want to begin studying psychology.

Answer 1

I can not speak of the Koran because my knowledge of it is limited. I have however studied the bible for over 30 years and believe that it is inspired by God and addresses life's most crucial issues. Life itself, humanity, is full of absurdities, hypocrisies, inconsistencies and contradictions. How can scripture address these issues without being first perceived likewise? Many things are misinterpreted even in daily conversations between people who speak the same language, in the same household even, in the same family. Does this mean that there is no love within the family because there are misunderstandings? Blatantly obvious mistakes are made by people who fail to look deeper into the meaning of what is communicated. What is obscure about "Love your neighbor as yourself" or "Give and it shall be given unto you"? Sure, people take it to mean whatever they want but the meaning is clear to most sane individuals. In the Old Testament God is cruel to cruel people; that is the nature of Justice. If there is no justice then there can be no peace. As for God being vindictive and an irrational control freak, you will have to give specific examples for me to address your interpretation of a passage.

additional:
- Life's absurdities within the context of human behavior include such things as people who say they seek truth yet believe a lie as in the Bush administration and his rise to power via Swift Boat deceptions. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. Is it during your observations during this period that you became an atheist?
- The honesty and truthfulness of any communication is not contingent on it's interpretation or translation but it's meaning which can not be understood without honest inquiry and an open mind. You said, "You claim that the scripture must be perceived likewise in order to address these issues" when I never made that claim or assertion. I asked a question, "How can ......." which you tactically avoided answering by turning my question into a statement and redirecting. Your tactic is a device of deception like those used by Swift Boaters. Did you mean to employ deception to cause confusion? Are your really looking for answers or simply here to promote your own political agenda? The answers to my questions seem obvious enough.
-You seem to wish to muddy the waters by pitting against each other the concepts of justice and mercy as expressed in the Bible, which seem to be contradictory to you. How do they contradict? There is no need for mercy if there is no law. Where there is no law there is no justice. Where there is no justice there is no hope.

in addition:
You say, "I think that the scripture should elucidate, quantify, and clearly explain the truth so that everyone has an opportunity to learn and understand it." I have found that the teachings of Jesus do just that when applied.

You say, "...I would also like to point out that most loved ones will forgive each other’s transgressions despite the absence of an apology." Are you married? I am and know that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard anyone say in a long time. You should study up on your psychology a bit more.

You say, "The God you worship threatens to eternally torture people for transgressions they make during the course of their life". This is a half truth. Forgiveness is for any and every person who admits the harm they have caused (sin) to themselves and or others and lives to rectify and eliminate that harm. People who refuse to admit the harm they cause and who continue harming others and even defend their harmful actions with silence, hiding and lies create for themselves "hell on earth". It is my belief that this "hell on earth" follows them into eternity. What kind of father would I be if I allowed my children to harm themselves and others and do or say nothing? How could I show forgiveness for anything if there is no acknowledgment and sorrow for what was done wrong? Should I accept an infraction such as drug abuse or drunk driving with forgiveness and acceptance without correcting the behavior? If that is being vindictive or a control freak then I am there, if it means keeping my kids safe and out of trouble.

Then you bombard me with dozen of questions to which you do not seem to want answers to because you have already closed your mind. So what is the point in asking them especially when I already gave a general answer at the beginning of this debate as to the method by which to uncover the answers, which more succinctly is to understand the nature of humanity first and then ask questions to which you actually do want answers.

If God was cruel as concerning Noah's flood, then why did God warn Noah at all and why did Noah warn everyone else? Those who drowned had all been warned of the coming disaster and given hundreds of years to prepare but instead they scoffed and ridiculed Noah. Like those in New Orleans who were warned but did nothing and drowned, would you say that the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Association (NOAA) should be faulted? Noah warned everyone but they did not listen so everyone drowned and you blame God. Wow!

As for Levitical Law, there would be too much to discuss here and I am rather sure you would scoff at any interpretation I would provide.

As for World Peace, I believe you are absolutely correct.

As for my fear of death. I am sorry ... what? Where did you get that? Do you know of my military service as a member of a Sixth Fleet Special Task Force during which I received four bronze stars? Do you know what I do within the orphanages and homeless shelters here working with veterans and children?

As to example of life's absurdities and such, I did give general reference and typical though cliches examples.

How do you arrive at a population of 30 million?

Did you just read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion" because you use his arguments almost verbatim?

You say that you have no political agenda but you do.
Concerning your political motivation you said,
- “I have a dream. Someday all the people of the earth will evolve beyond the need to create false gods and religions. They will accept reality and the fact that life has a beginning and an ending. I think someday this dream will be realized by humanity.”
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070906225450AAerMGL

You said here, "I became an Atheist as the result of years of study in the fields of philosophy, history, sociology, psychology, and theology." but you also said when asked the question by Butterfly Girl in Yahoo Answers:
“Atheist’s, When did you stop believing in God”
you answered, “When Bush was elected the second time.”
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index.php?qid=20070906225050AAg1CW3
reinforcing my assumptions of your political agenda and general dishonesty.

Concerning your hateful prejudice towards Christians in general you said,
- “I am not saying you're stupid just to be mean. I'm saying it because it's true.”
http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index.php?qid=20070907060443AAqsatH
and
- “Mindless sheep. They are merely mimicking their god.”
http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070909155539AAafb5F
- “You don't understand spitituality either.”
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070907060759AAYvRB8

Do you apply all this to me as well?
Just because your Q/A list is private does not mean we can't see it.

You have made up your mind and argue every point taking the time to tell me what I said when I know what I said and it is here clearly documented.

Answer 2

I understand. I was brought up in Christianity and questioned it even as a kid. I could never get anything other than the usual answers of “Just have faith” and “Keep God first.” And the questions were always what I thought weren’t difficult, like; Why weren’t the ice age and cavemen in the bible?, If God were so loving and understanding then why would he punish HIS Creations with hell? (Some people have the disadvantages of life from birth), Why are there so many different churches/beliefs?, If “parts” of the bible have been found to be missing then why believe that the bible is the whole truth? Who was King James? If the bible is God’s true word then why are there different bibles? What are translators? What about other religions? And on and on….
I get frustrated too but I accept it. I just try and build a good argument concerning the history and controversies. And ultimately, I know in my heart and soul that my beliefs about God & Purpose is so much greater than the tyrannous, puppet master God that the Bible has made him out to be.
Grin and bare it. One day we’ll all have the same understanding.

Answer 3

I'm not Christian or Muslim, but I can back their play here. Maybe God intended the books to be so inconsistent, and paint him poorly for a reason. Perhaps, in his infinite understanding of cause and effect, decided that was the best course of action for the success of his Children. The worse a person, thing or circumstance is, the more heroism, goodness, and kindness it inspires.

Edit: I'm talking about the ultimate success of his Children. Look, we're a young species, we've grown considerably in the past 6000 years, and we're getting stronger, smarter, and more capable every day. Eventually we'll get to the point in science where we can cure everything, create idyllic situations for every Human Being, and all live a considerably long life. If conditions has been even an ounce different, one line of text hadn't been in the bible that was there, it's hard to tell what the world would look like today. You cannot know. So I challenge your Human understanding to think on a higher level.
And about Birth Control: If we gave everybody birth-control, natural fear of pregnancy would prevent births (as it has in hte U.S.) to the point where a successful economy could not exist in the country. Try thinking about Human direction, purpose, and future on a larger scale than the sufferings of a few individuals. 6000 years ago conditions for everyone were worse than they are in Third World Countries.

Answer 4

Happily I think these major religions are on their way out. As people get more educated less and less follow these religions. They are losing power rapidly and many that say they are "christian" etc are not really, they barely go to church and even rarer live by these books.

As for Religion and happiness, I think religion is a neccesary "crutch" for many people to maintain their happiness. And to suddenly take that away would cause the person to fall. People really just need to be presented a differnt view in a good way and given their own chance to change. Some people will not change, reconize that and move on.

Answer 5

Well, your initial conclusion is faulty. There are many thinking Christians, and I assume people of other faiths, who do not think of the Bible as the "word of God," meaning directly dictated by God. Did you know this type of thinking changed around the 16th century? Most Christians recognize scripture as inspired by God, in that God may speak in and through scripture, but did not neccessarily speak it directly. The Bible gives insight and knowledge, but modern readers cannot (in spite of what some say) read it and intrepret it literally. When taken in historical and literary context, the Bible is allowed to be what it truly is, a powerful collection of writings, compiled over thousands of years, that speaks to universal truths of human experience, and attempts to give witness to the experience of the divine of a certain group of people. I think you are right in saying that a rigid, fundamentalist and intolerant worldview will never lead to peace, but religions aren't the only vehicles for this type of mentality.

Answer 6

There are more than 50 translations of the Bible in English alone so i have not tried to read them all to see if which one (if any ) is correct. Understanding God is a lot easier than reading possible inaccuracies about him.God reveals a lot about Himself if WE let Him. But WE must trust in His mercy which he wants to pour over US. Governments are to blame (my opinion only) for the situation of the people they are supposed to look after.They don't care who starves to death .As long as they keep getting aid from other countries they save more money for themselves.They send their people to war when it should be themselves fighting.(my view only) Some people ask how can God allow people to starve to death everyday ? Americans throw away left over food from their tables everyday that would feed the world's
starving people many times over (my opinion only) God is not to blame.Where did you get the notion that you will go to hell for not believing in God ?.You will be judged on how you live your life,not on what you know or don't know.It is your relationship and attitude towards every person that God ever created that will be a determining factor of where you will spend your eternal life BECAUSE WHATEVER YOU DO TO OTHERS YOU DO TO GOD.

.EDIT...I didn't mean to say "you' ,i mean't to say' us"(Christians) because i know you do not want any of this directed at you PERSONALLY so i have corrected it .My mistake.Sorry.
The part about the Bible.Even if there was only one version of the Bible i would not read it.because it was written by men after God had left.As far as going to Hell,that is up to God (my belief only) No one is there yet .because every one has to be judged first (my belief only)
'Those who believe, no explanation is necessary. Those who do not believe ,no explanation is possible.(my belief only)

It is strange (to me) how the Big Bang theory is still a theory and yet the remote possibility of a Creator is dismissed because of lack of proof,and yet there is lack of proof for the Big Bang.Yet scientists keep trying to prove the universe by natural means.(my belief only)

Now if you find fault with what i have added then so be it .You dont have to agree with any of this .It's your prerogative, but i feel there is no answer to satisfy you .Maybe if you post it in the philisophy section you may get better results.

I SEE YOU HAVE MADE YOUR QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS PRIVATE .I wonder why ? Yes, i know,it is none of my business.

Actually looking at you main question ,it is rather rude the way you have worded it ("IF YOU ARE HERE FOR TWO POINTS,DON'T BOTHER") .I doubt that you care for people by the wording of your question.Is there anyone that you love besides yourself?.

Edit.I think you cannot accept someone or something more powerful than you . It is too much for your ego to cope with.You don't "see" God therefore there is no God which satisfies you. If you are an intelligent person ,you would at least consider the possibility of a higher power,no matter how remote it might be (Even Einstein said he wanted to get inside the mind of God.) . But you can't even do that .

.Some ''Christians" do not believe me when i say you don't need to read the Bible to believe in God. Actually i received an Email from one recently saying i was spreading lies about the bible and i should get my facts straight. He/she was most upset. So i cop abuse from both camps.

Answer 7

You attempt to answer spiritual questions with logical answers.
You attempt to confine a supernatural power into your own tiny box.
You seek perfection where none exists while rejecting the perfection that may exist.
Your quest will eventually lead to the only obvious conclusion: a power greater than man or some undefined 'nature' must rule the universe.
God exists.
This is the only logical conclusion!

Answer 8

I say we construct mass mental institutions! That should cure em' up good. But on a serious note....
Religious discrimination may be one option. "If your dumb enough to believe those fairy tales, you aren't smart enough to work for me". I would imagine that would get people thinking, even if it is slightly rash.

All in all though, the major problem we have in western society is that we see faith as a positive. Basing your life on something with no proof is never a good thing and should be looked down upon, when we, as a society finally realise that, things will change rapidly. (for the better).

Answer 9

Our world is being turned upside down and every edict is being challenged, even ones we think could never logically be possible. We are in the middle of a storm, and we have our noses in the dirt, our eyes squeezed shut and our hands over our heads to keep our hair on.

Peace.

Answer 10

Continue to speak out against it, and use the legal system as applicable.

You might consider joining groups like the Center For Inquiry.

Answer 11

Religions has both its pros and cons.

I say "Be spiritual - not religious" but some cannot grasp that.

Keep walking your path! You sound like you have been thinking very hard! That IS good, but please, take a break once in a while because the brain can be a VERY harmful place.

Blessed Be )o(