I recently asked a question about works and penance and I want to re-ask it sort of. I believe that Christians are saved by faith not by works. However I also believe if we are saved we will have works. We will have love. We will help people when we can. We will spread the gospel. We will have works that serve a purpose. However as I understand it many times when confessing a person is told a certain number of our father or hail Marys to say. From what I can see this work benefits no one. It does not feed anyone. It does not make someone feel loved. It does not clothe anyone. It seems to me to be a pointless work that benefits no one and has no value beyond tradition. So my question is what is the point in saying hail Marys or our fathers?
2007-09-08 07:00:08 · 8 answers · asked by Bible warrior 5 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
luke s - did I ever say Catholics do not do good works that benefit people? The answer is no. I know the do good works. As do most churches. I asked about one specific thing. I never said that the Catholic church is not doing good in the world because it is. I am just trying to understand some of their beliefs. I am questioning not trying to attack.
2007-09-08 07:13:11 · update #1
Jude & Cristen H - You give old testament examples. Examples before the grace age. I would not call those valid. Also you did not answer my question at all. I clearly state that if we have faith we will have works. However as the our fathers and hail Marys do not help anyone they seem to me to be pointless. You say they help the penitent in their heart. To me it seems more like they say I sinned and did wrong. So I will do this penance. Now I have done something to help pay for my sins and I feel better.
2007-09-08 07:25:50 · update #2
redgriffin728 - I am very happy with my church. I go to a pentecostal church. I am just trying to understand others beliefs. I really am not trying to attack or deride peoples beliefs. I am just looking for understanding. The church I go to is active in helping the community which is how it should be.
2007-09-08 13:17:16 · update #3
I am an ex Roman Catholic. The only "work" that is of any value in the sight of God is the work of Christ on the cross when He became the sinner's substitute and put away sin by dying in our stead. The apostle James said: "Faith without works is dead." The two go together. The first work we have to do is believe on Jesus (John 6:29). In John 14: 23 Jesus said: If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." After this we are led by God to do what is right in His sight. We become His servants - mere instruments carrying out His will - so that He may get all the glory and praise.
2007-09-09 03:02:21 · answer #1 · answered by jael 2 · 0⤊ 0⤋
If all you are doing in church is confessing then you are missing the point of belief. In the Gospels of John and Matthew Jesus puts forth the way to come to God and it doesn't have to be controlled by a church. The act of confession in the Catholic Church is a way for you to acknowledge the fact that you have sinned to God your wanting to be forgiven is enough the priest uses the Hail Marys and the penance as a visible sign of repentance but when you say in your heart that you have sinned and at that point ask for forgiveness you are.
If you don't feel that the church is giving you what you feel that you need in the way of spirituality you may want to search for another church or way to praise God. You don't need a church or a priest or a prayer book to tell god you believe. That is done anywhere that you acknowledge the beauty in Good's creation.
If you feel the need you can work in a soup kitchen feeding the needy, help Habitat for Humanity and build houses for the poor, mentor and tutor to a child who is having trouble in school or life. You must find your own work for the Lord. Remember the Hail Mary's are for you physical soul the works for others are for your immortal soul. God Bless
2007-09-08 14:28:05 · answer #2 · answered by redgriffin728 6 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Penance is most certainly a biblical precept. The prophet Nathan commanded King David to perform penance for the sins he committed. In the same vein, Jonah walked through Nineveh preaching repentance, and the people of the city fasted and put on sackcloth and ashes to do penance for sin - and God forgave them.
Penance in the form of prayers does many people good. The prayers are intended to help the penitent in his/her conversion of heart in the matter of sin, and so if that person becomes a better person, then his belief will help others.
The confusion over faith and works has to do with the modern notion that faith means some mental acceptance, but that is not the biblical notion of faith. Faith is action; faith is works. When Jesus condemns the Pharisees for their empty works, he doesn't condemn the works as much as he condemns the fact that the works are not acts of faith, for they are intended to promote themselves and not glorify God.
The only specific mention of judgment by Jesus is in Matt. 25 where people are judged on whether they cared for others - clearly works of faith. Penance is a work of faith as well.
2007-09-08 14:19:29 · answer #3 · answered by Jude & Cristen H 3 · 0⤊ 0⤋
The hail Mary's have nothing to do with the confession. In the end confession is about repentance so it perfectly in line with what you are saying.
God does not require works. He only requires faith, obedience and repentance. Even though it is a good idea to believe that you should be helping people, that does not conflict with Catholic tradition.
2007-09-08 14:05:46 · answer #4 · answered by alana 5 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Exactly. There is no reason to repeat hail marys or our fathers. The Bible does not even mention them anywhere. If anything, it speaks against the concept.
Matthew 6:7
"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like the pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words ."
2007-09-08 14:22:03 · answer #5 · answered by Consuming Fire 7 · 1⤊ 1⤋
None. It's not scriptural. Thomas Cranmer, archbishop of Canterbury (1533 - 1556) wrote:'... we should diligently search for the well of life in the books of the Old and New Testament and not run to the stinking puddles of men's traditions (devised by man's imagination) for our justification and salvation.'
2007-09-08 14:08:05 · answer #6 · answered by cheir 7 · 0⤊ 0⤋
According to their faith,the prayer does them good.
I personally prefer your secular definition of good.
Then again, Catholics are often amongst the first to organise Charity for the homeless and the poor. Take the wood out of your own eye, Christian.
2007-09-08 14:10:54 · answer #7 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
You don't need saving from anything except misinformation.
2007-09-08 14:05:50 · answer #8 · answered by Starte Christ 4 · 2⤊ 0⤋