US professional pilots - has anybody been issued with an ATP rating with less than 250 hours PIC time?

Question

It says in FAR 61.159 that you need at least 250 hours P1 but it also states that this can include 250 hours as P1 under supervision i.e. co-pilot time as handling pilot. I emailed the FAA and they said it needs to be "proper" P1 time i.e. captain.
Has anybody mamaged to get an ATP with less than 250 hours as commander?

Answer 1

Sorry Steve but ..... no.

The U.S. regs clearly state a minimum 250 hours of the 1500 flight hours for the FAA issued ATP certificate (not a rating) must be pilot in command. No where in 61.159 does it mention "P1" time. That is a term not used in the USA. Do you mean the Pilot In Command or "PIC"?

You ask, how do you get an ATP with less than "250 hours commander"?

This may be a point of misinterpretation. PIC time is not necessarily "Commander" time, a term which is also not used in the US airline industry. (We call them "captains" but they log "PIC" time). The captain of an airliner or a single pilot Cessna both log PIC time. For logbook purposes, there is no difference- PIC time is PIC time, no matter what you fly.

Therefore, a pilot can easily log the 250 PIC hours required toward 61.159 (4) while training and get their ATP certificate without ever logging a single hour as a "commander" as airline captains are called abroad. If you managed to get your JAA certificates under a "frozen ATPL" and never logged 250 hours as PIC on any aircraft, well then... you may have a problem trying to convert and get your ATP! I know of a German MD-11 pilot who had this very problem. Thousands of hours in a heavy jet but not enough PIC time, so he couldn't get his FAA ATP. You may very well have to fly the hours you need to meet the requirements.

The "SIC" reference in 61.159 subpart (4) would apply to an SIC pilot who is more than just the "handling co-pilot". This type of situation would be a training scenario where both pilots can actually log PIC, as it is a "training" or experience building flight, however there is only one legal PIC- the training Captain who signed for the aircraft. Hence the description "OR second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command". Such scenarios are more common with Part 91 operators with pilots who must meet PIC time minimum requirements for insurance purposes. Such a "training scenario" is a way to get it.

BTW- Just because a pilots is type rated DOES NOT mean they both can log PIC time! In the case where both pilots are typed, ONLY the Captain (or "commander") who signs the release may log PIC. The type rated "captain" acting as F/O must log SIC for that flight as they didn't sign for and accept the aircraft. Also, ALL airlines require an ATP to be a captain. There are no exceptions.

Answer 2

I'm not going to look it up but when did the rule change that if you were fully qualified to act as pilot in command of an aircraft and you were the sole manipulator of the controls, then you could log that time as PIC whether or not you are the assigned captain? That means if you have a multiengine rating and were assigned as copilot of a King Air, the time that you spent flying the airplane you could log as PIC be cause you don't need a type rating to be PIC in a King Air. The captain also is authorized to log that same time as PIC. If you were the copilot on say a Boeing 727 and only the captain had a 727 type rating, then as the copilot when you were flying the aircraft you could not log PIC because you are not fully qualified to act as PIC in that aircraft. Somebody tell me please when that all changed.

And by the way. Never ever call a FSDO and ask for an interpretation of a regulation. THEY HAVE BEEN SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN to ever enterpret an FAR. Only the interpretation board in Oaklahoma City can do that. These clowns at the local FSDO know less about the regs than the average student pilot and when you invite them to "interpret" anything you are just begging for an egotistical wrong answer. There is very little to interpret in the FARs. Most are written in very plain english so just read them and follow what you read.

Answer 3

Are you serious do you think the FAA would allow you to command a passenger airline jet with only 250 hours??? The 250 hours is the minimum total time as pilot in command which is not hard to get if you had flown smaller planes before moving into the airlines! So as you explained the rest of the time can be made up as ICUS or co-pilot time with a requirement to fly a certain amount of night time. So by the time you get the licence you should have 1500 hours to be granted your ATPL

An ATPL does not make a good pilot it is your flying experience flying in command that makes you experienced. The ATPL will come in due course of your career so there is no need to rush and get it.

Answer 4

About 60 years ago, or so, copilots could credit half of their time towards the PIC requirements of what was then called the ATR. (it was an additional rating added on to your commercial pilot's certificate in those days) Of course, if you were flying copilot for anybody in those days, it was usually in a DC-3 or -4 for an airline anyway. It sounds as if FAR 61.159 may have been overcome by events. You might want to contact your local FSDO in person and have them explain their interpretation of what the reg says. If you don't like that answer, go to a different FSDO and ask them. You'll probably hear something completely different.

My guess is that you'll have 'em stumped, as the last time that this provision was utilized was probably before the inspector was born.

Answer 5

First and for many get your 4 3 hundred and sixty 5 days degree. in case you're finding to the armed forces for flight education, do no longer hardship too lots approximately your age. besides the incontrovertible fact that the Air stress has an age decrease off of 27 and a million/2 years for pilot education, you may get an age waiver for some one as previous as 30. elect your armed forces occupation wisely although. some armed forces pilots get so lots extra flight time than others. Flying combatants or different severe profile airplane would seem glamorous, you will in certainty get very few flight hours. Flying much less properly understand airplane can get you extra flight time than you are able to think of. i understand of a C-a hundred thirty pilot who logged close to to 1000 hours in a three hundred and sixty 5 days. i understand of a C-17 pilot this is long previous flying 3 weeks a month. the different income to flying armed forces shipment airplane is which you get "heavy" multi engine time that seems stable on a resume in case you attempt to pursue an airline occupation

Answer 6

If you are qualified, for example, CRJ typed, flying as the sole manipulator of the controls, you can log that as PIC... To the best of my knowledge, there are several airlines require you to be ATP to be a captain... if you need to be ATP to be a captain and only a captain can become ATP that would be a pretty exclusive group...

Answer 7

You must have 250 hours for a commercial rating, you must have 1500 hours for an Airline Transport Rating. (ATP), so none has gotten it in less than 250 hours.

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least (read the rest for yourself to demnote how those hours must be divided.)
§ 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least: