To Jews: when an almah marries, is it still common for her to be known as an almah?

Question

or is she more commonly referred to as something else?

this is my thought:

If the Lord promised a child to an almah, which would obviously mean it must origin in Holiness, it would be either one of these:

that the almah is married - the marriage would be necessary because the Lord is Holy and wouldn't allow a promised Child that is of God's purpose to be born in sin.

or that the almah is unmarried - in which case she would have to be virgin to again avoid an unholy situation

if it is not common for an almah to be known within wedlock, it must then mean that the almah referred to in Isaiah 7:14 must be a virgin

I know this verse is contraversial for the two religions, but please try to be as objective as you can for my sake :)

sbl why don't you show a bit of respect??
Truth is what matters to me.
God gave us our own minds and if I want to be near God, why should He deny the Truth to me?
My heart will tell me first what's Truth, not any religion on earth. Anyway I thought the point of Judaism was to lead people to God not deter them

RW, you misunderstood me - i did not mean sin as in original, i meant he would not create a promise that would directly contradict with His own Laws

"from my understanding of historical jewish belief, and *Definitely* how it generally is now, if a 14 year old girl shows up pregnant, carries it to term, and has a healthy baby, THE CHILD's "purity" is no different, wether she was raped, claimed she had never once had sex or been exposed to semen, or if it was the result of a "consentual", "loving" relationship. its absolutely the same as far as the CHILD's status with God."
Ach, please RW do not tell me this. I am trying to examine Is. 7:14 as whether it is referring to Messiah from an objective point of view. Are you telling me God would allow the Messiah who is supposed to bring about God's final holy plan for the world to be conceived in such an unholy way? Is this what Judaism is representing??

RW, my mind is just boggling right now, there are just so many things that I have to say i don't agree with you from an existential point of view. It's just branching off in all directions. I guess it does all come down in the end to how we see God when we take all matter of materialistic proofs away. I'm gonna try to respond some tommorrow - gotta go to bed now :D

You know what people, the world, it vomits out interpretation from all sides. Tell me, how do you prove Truth?

Out of the world came one man, Abraham, and out of his own heart came the foreknowledge of God not from the mouths of men, but God. What does this tell you.

Now examine Abraham and his relationship with the Lord and see you the nature of God and His Requirement. Enough with rules and regulations!.

Says God, Sacrifice you, your only begotten Son. All that I love, said Abraham, I sacrifice to you, that all I am, and all I have comes to NOTHING but for you. Abraham KNEW God. He will not let my son to die, even my only begotten son, for my God does Love me, even unto His very nature. There is the demonstration of Love, the saving nature of Love, the requirement of God to fulfill in himself (Abraham) the Nature of God.

The Nature of God given at the beginning: We will make an image unto ourselves, in OUR likeness. The likeness of the Lord is not SIN!. The Lord cannot create sin because sin is not OF God. Sin becomes of itself through disobedience to LOVE. And it is Love that saves from the horrors and sufferings of sin, even as God saved Isaac. I, who Love the Lord, do not want to ever sin against Him!!! Sure I can ask forgiveness forever - but i do not want to create the act of sin! I love the Lord I don't ever want to hurt Him. How do you justify Truth through literal interpretation? Please tell me this. I know you tell me it is written, but seriously is this the end of all means to your conclusions on Truth? It is not to religion that we are bound but to Truth. Truth and Love! Tell me how do you prove what you interpret is Truth. How do you recognise beyond words, the Lord God Jehovah. I will open up a new question on it if you want to answer.

Answer 1

Let me clarify a few terms before I answer the question:
Bogeres- an adult female
Betulah- a complete virgin
Ne'arah- from the age of majority till 6 months later
Almah- a bogeres after the age of being a ne'arah

So, at the age of 12 a girl is considered a bogeres- and for the next six months two other things 1) a betulah and 2) a ne'arah. The two are used in different contexts- where the girl is a virgin- it is only in this six month period that she is considered a betulah. The term ne'arah is a broader term that has legal implications and is used in various legal contexts.

Beyond the age of 12 years and 6 months- the girl is considered an almah, regardless of her status as a virgin/non-virgin or married/unmarried. She remains an almah until the age of 20 (though some opinions state the age of 18) at which time she is considered a full adult and would be called ishah.

So, the almah reference in Isaiah is NOT to a virgin- but to a girl between the age of 12 and a half and twenty.

edit: There are actually situations where a child, though not considered to inherit sin, is born in a status of being impure and not permissible to the entire congregation, and especially not to Kohanim. The major class of these are children born from a relationship with a relative where the punishment is kares (excission at the hands of a heavenly court)- these children are considered mamzerim and can only marry other mamzerim. Another set of children that are not fully tahor (pure for the whole community are those born from a relationship forbidden to a Kohen- these are known as chalallim and include a child from a Kohen who cohabited with a divorcee or convert, or a child from the Kohen gadol and a women who was a widow or non-virgin when they got married. Children from a non-Jewish father and Jewish mother are a grey area and we rule leniently that they are not mamzerim. The issue with an unknown father is then if the father was related to the girl and thus she is not speaking up so her child will not be called a mamzer. Once again, it is a case of doubt and the ruling would be to be lenient- but the child is going to be seen as having a flawed background, and he has no inheritance as the inheritance is from the father's tribe, and his father, and thus tribe, is unknown! There is no adoption in Judaism, you cannot change tribe or be adopted into a tribe-it goes strictly according to your father (and thus means that if God is Jesus' father, he cannot be from the house of David!)

ALso, in Judaism sex is NOT sinful. Between a husband and wife, sex and conception is a MITZVAH (positive commandment) for which you are rewarded. Additionally, a man is required to do his best to make sure that his wife takes pleasure in the act! Being conceived in Judaism is a happy, positive time in which we get to fulfill a commandment while rejoicing in the gift that God has given us! Stating that being born through sex is a sinful act is a purely Christian construct that has nothing to do with Judaism!

Answer 2

I think your trying to apply a term that I don't think is really used anymore (as the intent and modern standards don't correlate)

I think part of the problem is you are trying to retroactively apply christian prejudices to a "prophecy" in such a way that they do not apply.

"which would obviously mean it must origin in holiness" .... why?

remember the messiah of the old testament is NOT god incarnate. is NOT sinless, is NOT a sacrifice, and is NOT a mediator between man and God, (at least not how christianity thinks jesus is/was)

>>"and wouldn't allow a promised Child that is of God's purpose to be born in sin. "<<

this is a crucial point. ... Isaiah is an old testament... Jewish, text. ... Judaism does not have a concept of original sin. a child does NOT inherit any racial sin from adam/eve, and it does NOT inherit the sin of its parent(s).

in Judaism we are born innocent. thus the ENTIRE POINT you are trying to make, falls apart.

there is no original sin in judaism.

from my understanding of historical jewish belief, and *Definitely* how it generally is now, if a 14 year old girl shows up pregnant, carries it to term, and has a healthy baby, THE CHILD's "purity" is no different, wether she was raped, claimed she had never once had sex or been exposed to semen, or if it was the result of a "consentual", "loving" relationship. its absolutely the same as far as the CHILD's status with God.

if the father is unknown, or unrecognized, or otherwise not-legitimate, that has its own "consequences" but its not on the childs nature, but on its heritage and the verifiability of its heritage.

another point to note, that the royal line in Judaism/hebrew ancestory, is passed through the PATRIARCHAL line. a child without a recognized, legitimate, certain-as-possible father of the appropriate lineage, CANNOT inherit the royal bloodline, (qualify for the throne, which the messiah must) no matter what.

edit: conceeding appropritate points to the above poster, though most of my rambling is more relevant to the religious/spiritual aspects between christianity and the jewish scripture

edit for your addition:
>>"RW, you misunderstood me - i did not mean sin as in original, i meant he would not create a promise that would directly contradict with His own Laws"<<

contradict with his own laws how?
Abraham was the son of a idol-maker.
Noah was a drunk.
Jacob STOLE the birthright from Esau through deception.
Moses wasn't perfect either.

a person being special and having an important and/or holy destiny, does not mean they come from some especially perfect source.

in fact one could argue that one of the big points in Jewish history and belief, is that some of the greatest and most crucial people religiously/spiritually, were NOT perfect people, and their eventual great status and accomplishment, did NOT come from some especially miraculous origin.

my PERSONAL inteperetation is that the whole line in question, was a MINOR detail minorly highlighting a detail of it being an uncommon origin. to Judaism, that particular line is EXTREMELY minor. the Messiah's accomplishments will make it rather obvious when hes truly arrived.

editing a *little* more... heh.

>>"Are you telling me God would allow the Messiah who is supposed to bring about God's final holy plan for the world to be conceived in such an unholy way? Is this what Judaism is representing??"<<

to put it rather simply... sure. why not? why would that matter AT ALL? why would that be of ANY consequence? are you more or less of a person, or are your accomplishments any different, because of how your mother got pregnant?

if anything that would be all the more the point! that the person IS just a regular person whos very specially destined.

did you also know that its a common jewish belief that EACH generation, a "potential" "king messiah" is born, and that if the circumstances are just right, they become "the one" and blossom into THE King Messiah?

what i'm saying is that theres no reason that the messiah being born to an unmarried girl would be all that big of a deal, disqualifying, or signifigant.
*remember* the jewish messiah is just a guy. emphasizing this by being born out of wedlock, wouldn't be THAT inconceivable.
if anything this is *more* probable to be allowable *now* than ever in history. because *now* the genetic lineage COULD be verified after the fact, and un-married birth is more accepted now than ever.
I don't see why you see this minor detail as being such a big deal.

Answer 3

Being of the Jewish faith, please take my advice. The tales of old are for life lessons and nothing else. It simply means you are better seen by the tribal community if you are wed as a virgin rather than a whore. I wish you unclean Gentiles would stop trying to understand and interpret books that are completely over your heads. The stories of the Old Testament were never meant to be taken litteraly and no one but a fool would do so!

Answer 4

I'll make it real easy for you Isaiah 7:14 is not a Messianic prophecy. I cannot make it simpler then that. Christians read the Bible searching for Jesus, if you just read it without "knowing" what it says ahead of time it is obvious Jesus is nowhere in Tanakah.