anyone care to read Romans10:19-21 and Romans11:11?

Question

and give me your insight on this? i have a question out already bout being provoked to jealousy and this is why i asked it.

(onoscity) good answer. i knew why they were provoked cause he wanted his ppl. when i read this verse a long time ago it always stuck in my mind. which im thankful no matter what the case is, but i guess it just kinda blew my mind maybe

Answer 1

Paul concludes part 1 of Romans 11 (11:1-10) describing those who are not part of the remnant - that is, those who have rejected Christ. These “hardened” Israelites (v.v.7,25) are those who have “stumbled,” (v.11), have “fallen,” (v.12), were “broken off,” (v.v.17,19), and are in “unbelief,” (v.20,30). The three verses prior to verse 11 (v.v.8- 10) have the hardened Israelites as “slumbering,” spiritually blind and deaf, and, in general, darkened.

Thus the question that arises in verse 11 is quite natural; “Have they (hardened Israel) stumbled that they should fall?” On the heals of Paul's vivid description of the state of unbelieving Israel, it was of great interest to the apostle to display the mercies of God toward this apostate people - mercies which will bring forth praise from Paul in his closing doxology (11:33-36).

The key to the context of Romans 11:11 is Israel. The question of verse 11 directs us to the fate of Israelites and their future, just as the previous discussion related directly to those Israelites who are unbelievers. This will be essential as we approach verse 12. In short, the question in Romans 11:11 as defined by the context of Romans 11:7-10 may be summarized by the following; “The blind and hardened Israelites... are they blind such that they shall never see, and hardened beyond reach such that their future is hopeless?”

v.11 - Major Issues

Pauline style when questions arise Paul has a particular style of discourse when inquiries are involved such as we have in verse 11. His style may be summarized as follows:

1. question... 2. short retort... 3. summary answer... 4. detailed answers, issues and explanations.

Note this four part linkage in Romans 6:1-3: 1) Question, “Shall we continue in sin (v.1);” 2) short retort, “May it never be (mee genoito), (v.1);” 3) summary answer, “how shall we who died to sin live any longer therein; (v.2)” 4) detail, “Do you not know...” (v.3ff). Romans 7:13-14 is the same: 1) Question, “Is that which is sin become death to me, (v.13);” 2) short retort, “May it never be (v.13);” 3) summary answer, “But sin, that it might appear sin...(v. 13);” 4) detail, “for we know the law is spiritual...” (v.14ff).

Thus we have been well prepare for the movement of Paul's thought by his style of question/answer in 6:1, 6:15, 7:7, 7:13, 9:14, 9:18,and 11:1. We are most assuredly well prepared for the flow of thought in Romans 11:11 and following. Indeed, a quick look at Romans 11:11 will reveal this question-short answer- summary answer style: 1) Question, “Have they stumbled that they should fall; 2) short retort, “May it never be;” 3) summary answer, “but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” The detail - 4) - will begin in verse 12. We will briefly approach each of the parts to Paul's inquiry in the “Key Words” section.

The Gentile recipients of “Romans”

His question arises from many reasons; love for countryman (9:1ff; 10:1ff etc.), defense of truth (9:6b; 10:3) etc. Yet the preeminent, as well as a common theme that runs throughout this section (11:11-32), is the pride of the Gentile Romans in their salvation when for so long they lay in spiritual darkness, while the Israelites, with all the covenants, promises, etc. (Rom 9:40) had rejected the gospel light. This is abundantly evident, for Paul will make such comments to his Roman Gentile brethren as: “boast not against the branches” (11:18), “be not high-minded” (v.20), “wise in your conceits,” (v.25). Indeed, Paul has no encouraging words for his Gentile readers in this section (a point that will become important in our subsequent verse)!

What is of importance to the rest of Romans 11 (11:12-32) is that: 1) Paul wants to settle the issue of the future and his contemporary Israelites, and 2) he is interested in the Gentiles only so far as it helps answer the question of his contemporary kinsman and their future hope.2

v.11 - Key Words (Greek/English)

mee / not - The sentence before us in verse 11a should really be translated; “They have not stumbled that they should fall, have they?”- a question which anticipates a no answer. Inevitably in greek, if a inquiry has “mee” in its structure, the writer or speaker is expecting a “no” response. An example of this is the Lord's question posed to the apostles after a crowd had displayed its dislike for His teachings. In John 6:67, the Lord said, “Will you also go away” (greek - mee kai umeis thelete upagein)? With the use of “mee,” our Lord expected his disciples to answer in the negative - the very answer which Peter subsequently gave the Savior.

Such is true as well with Romans 11:11. With his use of “mee,” Paul is already committing us to the truth that the Jews described in v.v.8-10 - the “hardened” Jews of 11:7 - are not beyond redemptive hope and have not stumbled so as to fall beyond God's grace.

Pesosi / fall - It should first be understood that the use of “fall” in verse 11 could not imply that the Jews have never fallen, for verse 22 states plainly that they have indeed done just that (e.g. “on them (Jews) which fell”). Paul is taking about a stumbling and falling that is permanent (i.e. “have they (Jews) fallen so as to be in a hopeless condition - beyond God's mercies”). The word “fall” is in a greek tense (aorist) which can be used to express a state of being or condition (what is called the cumulative aorist, similar to the greek perfect tense). This issue of a irretrievably fallen state is Paul's interest when raising the question of Romans 11:11. Paul is writing Romans 11:1-10 to inquire about the nation of Israel and their hope; in Romans 11:11-32, He is inquiring about the condition of those Israelites who have turned from the gospel. Paul is asking if they are hopeless; he is asking if these fallen Israelites are irrevocably lost.

Mee genoito / May it never be! - This is Paul's emphatic denial of a given proposition. Fourteen of the fifteen New Testament uses are found in Paul's writings - most all of these in Romans. Galatians 6:14 affords us the classic example of “mee genoito” when Paul says, “May it never be (mee genoito) that I glory save in the cross of Christ.” Here, in Romans 11:11, Paul's “mee genoito” provides the final word on the subject of any permanent, hopeless condition for the Jews described in v.v.8-10. There is hope for the redemption of Israelites, and Paul will provide the proof for that hope in the subsequent verses.

Soteria / salvation - Eternal redemption is Paul's concern when dealing with these Jews. He says this in verse 11, in verse 14, as well as verse 26. We need this established prior to Paul's use of his “grafting” illustration (v.v. 17-24). One might be tempted (as many have) to conclude that it is national redemption that is being discussed via the illustration in v.v.17-24, - but the salvation of v.v.11,14, and 26 is individual, not national. Branches are broken off because of unbelief (v.v.17,19-22). The grafting back in (v.v.23,24) is by faith unto eternal salvation, and such salvation is individual. We shall return to this point with regularity - especially in v.v.25 and 26.

Fall ® Salvation ® Jealousy

This link of (1) fall ® (2) salvation (Gentiles) ® (3) jealousy (Jews) ® (4) salvation (Jews) is the most important series of ideas that Paul will establish in Romans 11:11-32. We will encounter part or all of this contiguous series of ideas frequently in verses 11 through 32. Note the following linkage of the above themes (1), (2), (3), and (4):

In v.v. 13-14, Paul magnified his ministry - Gentile salvation (2) - such that he would provoke to jealousy the Jews (3) and save some (4). Verse 15 says, “if the casting away of them (1) [be] the reconciliation of the world (2), what shall the receiving of them be... (4). Again, in v.v.19-20, we find Paul putting these words into the mouths of the disdainful Gentiles; “Thou wilt say then, `the branches were broken off, that I may be grafted in (2). Well, because of unbelief they were broken off... (1).” Still again, in 11:25-26, Paul says, “...blindness in part is happened to Israel (1) until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (2). And thus (3) all Israel shall be saved... (4). Lastly, Romans 11:30-31 states, “these also have now not believed (1), that through your mercy (2) they may also obtain mercy (3).”

From the inception of this part of Romans (11:11), to the central discussion (11:13-14; 11:15; 11:19-20), to the unveiled mystery (11:25-26), to the conclusion (11:30-31)Paul's theme is the grace available to Israel if they return to Him. The issue of the fall of the Jews (1) granting an open gospel door to the Gentiles (2) and thus provoking the fallen Jews (3) such that they turn from unbelief to faith and salvation (4) is not just present, but clearly prevalent, pervasive - in a word, ubiquitous - in the Pauline argument of Romans 11:11-32.

The above must be grasped, because there will be a great temptation to start thinking Paul has left the main issue for other eschatological themes. This will be true in particular of 11:12 and 11:25-29. We must not venture to think Paul is pursuing new theological issues anywhere in Romans 11:11-32. He is solely interested in answering the question of 11:11!

The clear proof of this is the theme at the beginning of 11:11-32 is the same as at the end (cf. 11:11 and the Jews fall bringing in the Gentiles which in turn brings in the Jews (11:1 lb); compare 11:31 and “Even so have these (Jews) now not believed, that through your mercy (i.e. Gentile redemption) they (Jews) also may obtain mercy.”

v.11 - Cross References

The verse of note to help us on in our understanding of Romans 11:11 is 11:14. We can be sure of Paul's meaning of “jealousy” in verse 11 because Paul completes the thought in verse 14. Note:

salvation [is come] to the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Jews) to jealousy,” v.11. “I (through Gentile ministry) may provoke to emulation (greek/jealousy) and save some of them,” v.14.

This is Paul's theme, interest, and intent in his ministry - which ministry also was the proof that God still held out grace for the slumbering, hardened Jew.

Romans 10:19 - Paul has already announced this theme to some degree in the previous chapter (e.g. Gentile salvation provoking Israelite jealousy

v.11 - Summary

In summary, Paul begins a new division in Romans 11:11. He began the chapter with an inquiry into the grace of God and whether the whole nation of Israel, having put their own Savior to death (Acts 2:22ff; 7:52), had been rejected by God. This Paul emphatically denies, for there is a remnant according to the election of grace who are Israelites and do believe (Rom 11:5). Yet many do not believe, and the state of these Jews is delineated in 11:8-10.

This is what 11:11-32 is all about - the fate of those fallen Jews. Paul inquires regarding those Jews who are in a state of lostness. Do they have any hope to lay hold of the grace of God (11:11)? Paul says yes, and explains that God is using the fall of these Jews to bring in Gentiles to the kingdom. But this Gentile salvation is only a means to an end - the end being the provocation of the fallen Jews to lay hold of Christ and His gospel. Thus the question of “Have they (Jews) stumbled that they should fall (that is, fall irrevocably)?” Paul says “mee genoito” - No! God will use their own fall to bring them back.

Answer 2

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
What is your question on these verses.
jtm

Answer 3

I don't think the Pauline gospel solves problems.

Better to spend your time reading the Original Gospel Jesus preached. That original Kingdom Gospel will actually fix these issues for you if you can come to understand it.

Learn about the gospel Jesus preached in a fun free book. A real EYE Opener!!

Answer 4

I too consider Lancaster may have cut and pasted but at least he answered the question with the truth and completely. Is that what we are looking for or to see who knows the least. He knew where to look do you?
God Bless!

Answer 5

Sorry, but this lancaster freak hogged up all the space. Mr. Knowitall.
Hey, were these jews even aware that some crazy guy was writting about them, and slandering their good? name?
They ,like me, probably could,nt even give a hoooot about what paul thought of them.

Answer 6

The Gentiles gaining salvation through Christ would provoke the Jewish people to jealousy, and draw them to Christ, too...
that's how I read it, anyway.

Answer 7

Paul became a very wealthy land owner in Rome before being killed for committing fraud. The Romans kept very good records. Enough said about good ole Paul!

Answer 8

I believe this explanation will help you alot. thanks

Romans 10:19 "But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."

Here again Paul is quoting from the "song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32:21; "They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God: They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a People; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation [one world system]."

God will use this the Kenites and their one world system to bring about the conditions for testing the souls that are living on the earth. This time of God's provoking them to anger is at the time of the end. We are living in that day. God is jealous when Satan and his people mess around with His children, and God's anger will come down on that entire system. It will come to pass because God given us that promise through Moses and Paul, and many other prophets of the Scriptures.

Deuteronomy 32:22 "For a fire is kindled in Mine anger, And shall burn unto the lowest hell, And shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains [nations]."

Friend, this is part of that Song that will be sung upon the return of Christ at the seventh trumpet when the consuming takes place, as told by Jesus in Revelation 14:3. It is part of the song of the victors, those that lived and stood against Satan, the Antichrist in the great tribulation, or deception that is coming upon us shortly.

Romans 10:20 "But Esaias is very bold, and saith, "I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

Isaiah was very bold in what he said in Isaiah 65:1; "I am sought of them that asked not for Me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, "Behold me, behold me," unto a nation that was not called by my name".

In other words, the rebellious people of Israel never even sought after God, even when God placed His name upon them. Israel in the Hebrew means "he will rule as God".

Romans 10:21 "But to Israel He saith, "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

We will find out why God allowed this, even in His love, in the next chapter. There was a reason for it, and Paul wanted us to know that reason. There is a reason for every move that God makes, and those ways are always fair because He is just.

Romans 11:11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

Is the reason that God has allowed them to stumble and fall in a blind stupor to destroy them? God forbid, no way! This is the answer, through their fall salvation is opened up to the Gentile, plus the fact that God can provoke His own people to become jealous and return to Him. By their jealousy they will be driven away from their traditions, and back to God's Word.

The covenant was made to certain people, and it left many people out of the covenant. The Gentile nations did not have the law, and without following the law to the letter there was no salvation. Then Christ came and paid the price and salvation was open to all that would in faith believe and repent in Jesus' name.

Answer 9

Yeah, what Lancaster cut/paste up there rather than figuring it out for himself pretty well covers it.