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Creationists say that everything that is complex needs a creator. Well, I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that if God created everything we see today, God himself is probably complex. Well according to Creationists, God does not have a creator. So God is complex and exists without a creator. If God can be complex and exist without a creator, then the theory that everything complex needs a creator is obviously wrong as God disproves that theory wrong. If God can be complex and exist without a creator, then why can't existence itself be complex without a creator????? I wouldn't ask except for the fact that Creationists argue that complexity is evidence for the existence of God, when complexity could just as easily be used as evidence that we as humans can't prove or disprove the existence of God.

2007-07-25 11:20:29 · 23 answers · asked by Anonymous in Society & Culture Religion & Spirituality

djmantx, you are begging the question, is there even a begining.

2007-07-25 11:26:49 · update #1

ignoramus_the_great, I did not say that my question disproves God. I SPECIFICALLY said that we can not prove or disprove the existence of God.

2007-07-25 11:34:34 · update #2

Just because a baby has a beginning doesn't mean that the universe had a beginning. Although the baby had a beginning, the matter that makes up the baby was around long before the baby was around so that is a terrible analogy.

2007-07-25 11:36:31 · update #3

23 answers

There's no evidence that intelligent design can produce truly complex things anyway. All of the really complex things we know about (life, for the most obvious example) comes about through natural processes.

All of the evidence suggests that intelligent design is too limited to produce anything _nearly_ as complex as life. When creation scientists design and produce completely new life forms, maybe I'll start considering the possibility.

2007-07-25 11:24:06 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 1 2

The argument that complexity proves intelligent creation has a false basis. They claim that if you find a pocket-watch, you know it must have been created by someone because of its complexity. However, the fact of the matter is that you really know it was made by someone because you recognize that it is designed and manufactured via a method that is familiar to you as human workmanship.

If you found an alien equivalent of a pocket watch, you might think it was some sort of weird little animal - who knows?

Frankly, if you show a watch and a tree to the average man on the street and ask him which one was produced in a factory, he would obviously say that the watch was. However, with all of its DNA and biochemical processes, a tree is infinitely more complex than a watch. Still, people will point to the watch as being "designed". Complexity has absolutely nothing to do with being able to tell if something was designed by someone or not.

2007-07-25 18:38:30 · answer #2 · answered by Azure Z 6 · 1 0

Good question! I reflects an old argument, but a philosophically sound one. The fact is that complexity does not entail the existence of a creator. There are many, many examples of complexity that arises not from the design of an intelligent creator, but only by chance and according to the physical laws of nature.

Let water vapor condense and freeze on a rock. It will form in crystals, creating perfectly hexagonal shapes, just as it does when it forms snowflakes in the atmosphere. Complex crystaline forms materialize for no reason other than the laws of physics and the molecular properties of water. No sculptor or other intelligent creator required.

Drop a handful of dirt on the ground and it just makes a pile. But that pile is actually very complex at a closer perspective. Particles of dirt are carefully balanced upon other particles. Electromagnetic repulsion keeps the molecules of the dirt separate and keeps them from merging into a formless blob.

Consider how clouds sometimes take on the shapes of mountains, animals, boats, marshmallows and cotton candy. No sculptor or builder there, just the physical forces of nature.

The examples above can be explained with the scientific knowledge we currently possess. Those that we can't explain have always been, and for many still are, explained by the imagined existence of a mystical creator whose ways are beyond the understanding of mankind. That creator may or may not exist, but the presence of complexity is not proof, or even evidence, of His existence.

2007-07-25 20:08:31 · answer #3 · answered by Don P 5 · 0 1

Just because HUMANS cannot create life , how do arrive at the fact GOD needed a creator ? You are in effect putting humans up on the same level as God .

God is FAR superior to any human ! Humans can create spaceships that travel to the Moon and beyond ............. animals can`t . Would animals be correct in assuming then if THEY can`t create spaceships , then it naturally stands to reason that humans can`t either ?

The only real difference is that animals can see us , so they know we exist . Most atheists reason that because they can`t see God or talk to Him ................. He doesn`t exist .

Somewhere in the Bible ( I can`t think offhand exactly where) Job asked God if he could appear before him as He really is . God answered that He could not , because "no man may see me and yet live" .

Can you look at the Sun , which is an infinitesmaly insignificant star ? How would you expect the creator of the Sun AND the universe to sit down with you and have a chat ?

Humans think they`re very intelligent and have the answer for everything , when in fact , compared to God and the universe , we know nothing at all .

You`re also putting yourself , besides all other humans , on the same level as God ! Don`t you think that`s very presumptuous , at the very least ?

2007-07-25 18:44:21 · answer #4 · answered by Anonymous · 2 2

Good question. We can only go back so far until we come to the fact that for anything to exist we have an uncaused cause. This is not part of our natural universe as we know it.

As Christians we believe that God created the universe. He exists outside of the laws and sciences of our universe.

We absouloutly know this if there was ever a time in which there were nothing: no god, no univerce, just absoulutly nothing, there would be nothing now. This is simple logic. To believers the univerce was created by God. To unbelievers, this is a question that has not been answered yet.

2007-07-25 18:28:02 · answer #5 · answered by Anonymous · 2 2

From the beginning of recorded mythologly each and every type had a creation story. Why should the christians be any different than anyone else, and who has the right to try to tell them they are wrong. Everyone is going to believe what they want to and need to so it makes no sense to try to take their beliefs and drag them in the dirt, It would be an excellent idea to just let people believe what they need to and do not try to push our beliefs on others.

2007-07-25 18:41:01 · answer #6 · answered by redmarc316 4 · 0 0

This is similar to the Creationist argument that an "actual infinite" cannot exist, so the universe must have had a beginning, and therefore a cause, and therefore "God" must be this Cause. Well, then, obviously, what caused the Cause? All these arguments are simply cases of writing "God" for the unknown "X" and calling it a day.

2007-07-25 18:23:49 · answer #7 · answered by jonjon418 6 · 2 1

The Universe is a bubble with zero surface tension. Creationists confuse the "how" of science being the mystery of "why" that some choose to call God. When you are dealing with circuitous logic you will not win, disengage and go feed the pigeons at the park, you will do more good that way.

2007-07-25 18:25:56 · answer #8 · answered by Princessa Macha Venial 5 · 1 1

This is just an variation of the no first cause argument. If God exists even outside of our space time continuum, then how can you make him subject to it?

It's rather funny that you can say God had a creator, then imply that creator, had a creator, and so on and so on, producing like an infinite number of creators and then turn around and say this proves there is no God.

Then you turn around the other way, and listen to Hawkings and company talk about an infinite number of universes and say that is completely logical and scientific.

Do you guys even realize your own maneuverings?

2007-07-25 18:30:48 · answer #9 · answered by ignoramus_the_great 7 · 2 2

Who says God is complex? Infinite, which God is, is not complex, instead, simple.
Darwin stumbled upon the complexity of the eye, and obviously ignored it.
What is more plausible, that God created Himself, or that he has always been? Anything creating itself is an impossiblity, because in order to be in existence He would have to BE beforehand. What has ever created itself in the history of the world?
A created God is a contradiction in terms. You obviously failed to notice that. Anything created IS created, obviously, whereas a created God wouldn't have God attributes, like omniscience, omnipotent, omnipresence, etc.
If there was something that create God then we would have an infinite regression, and we would NEVER be here!

2007-07-25 18:36:26 · answer #10 · answered by Atheists for Lunch Bunch 4 · 1 2

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