Is God offended by this? Question about birthdays & wedding anniversaries. Must read question?

Question

This question is mainly for Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you think Jehovah God is more offended by a birthday party for your grandmother's 100th birthday, with moderate eating, drinking, and entertainment. Or a 50th wedding anniversary party for your parents, with immoderate drinking?

Please don't go into a lot of detail, since that was covered in my last question, but I am interested in knowing - briefly - the reason for your answer.

Thanks.

Moises

I wasn't expecting to ANSWER the question, but since you asked me, I'll give you my opinion.

I don't think it was customary for the Jews to celebrate birthdays in Jesus' time, nor wedding anniversaries, either. I doubt very much that Jesus celebrated his parents' birthdays or their anniversaries. It just wasn't the custom. Today, it is the custom in some lands-such as the US-to do so. These celebrations are totally non-religious, and if done in moderation, do not seem to be of a religious concern at all, so if Jesus were alive today, I wouldn't find it surprising if he would celebrate (moderately, of course) both b'days and anniversaries.

Moises

You left out the first part of the Eccl 7:1. It says that a good name is better than good oil. Is there anything bad with "good oil"? No, "good oil" is a good thing, but a good name is even better.

In the same way, the day of one's birth is a good thing, but the day of one's death is even better (speaking in a very specific way, of course.)

The Scripture doesn't in any way mean to say that there's something sinful or bad about being born.

Yes, your're right. Mark 6 says that Herod celebrated his birthday, but the Bible doesn't say that anyone other than kings celebrated birthdays at that time. It doesn't seem to have been customary for the "common people" to do so, like it is today.

Also, back in that time, a birthday celebration may have had some religious significance whereas today - at least here in the US - they don't.

I don't think it's necessary to celebrate birthdays. But I also think it's not necessary to make a rule that nobody else should, either. As far as I know, Jesus didn't eat watermelon, but I doubt he would be upset if other people did. It's just not a religious issue. At least here. Maybe in other areas of the earth, it could be, I don't know. I'm just speaking of the custom here in America.

Eccl. 7:1 doesn't support the idea that "birthdays are bad", so why quote it?
If you object to everything that's popular in the world, just because it's popular, then shouldn't you object to "partying" of any kind? Don't you suppose that wedding anniversaries were "invented" by someone who was NOT a Jehovah's Witness?

The Bible doesn't say anything "negative" about birthdays. It says that "it came to pass the third day, which was Pharoah's birthday, that he made a feast to all his servants". There's nothing negative - or positive - about that. It's a simple statement of fact, just as if the writer had said "Now the third day was Friday". Nothing negative about birthdays is implied.

Also, in Mark 6 it says that a convenient day came along when Herod on his birthday made a feast, again giving no negative - or positve - indication toward the celebrating of birthdays.

The beheading that took place had NOTHING to do with being a "birthday party" or Friday or whatever

tik

You do know that pagans offered flowers to the dead, don't you? Is that why people today send flowers when someone dies?

In other words, so what if they did? It's purely irrelevant because that's not why people send flowers today - it's merely a custom that shows respect. Do you really think Jehovah God views it as the same thing?

In my last question, a JW said that true Christians aren't preoccupied with the roots and possible religious connection of every practice or custom. So why then, make an exception for birthdays?

He also said that the Bible gives "pointed" indications about birthdays being unsuitable for Christians. The 2 Scriptures that mention birthdays give NO negative indications about birthdays at all - let alone "pointed" ones. Why did JW's celebrate b/days in the past if the Bible is so "pointed" about them - how did they overlook that?

Today's birthday parties, like wedding anniversaries, are a religious non-issue

So moto.....I guess that means Jehovah's Witnesses won't send flowers when someone dies?

What about embalming the dead?

TeeM

Either you misunderstand or deliberately represent MUCH of what I've said.

In either case, I challenge you to clear these misunderstandings/misrepresentations up, ONE AT A TIME.

#1. You said that I said that Paul didn't quote Joel in Romans 10. I don't think I said that, because I believe there's a SMALL chance that he did. I think that I said that Paul doesn't make reference to Joel in Romans 10, because it is a fact that the name "Joel" doesn't appear in chpater 10 at all. I mistakenly said "Luke", but I meant the writer of Romans, who was not Luke, - and not the translator of the NASB - but Paul.

That is a fact. We may not agree on what Paul had in mind when he wrote it, but there's no question as to WHAT he wrote, is there? Did you misunderstand what I meant? Unless you believe that Paul wrote "Joel" somewhere in Romans chapter 10, we have nothing to argue about on that particular point. Hopefully we can proceed to point #2. Can we?

Point #2

You said I said that Paul wrote Romans, to the Jews. I'm pretty sure I never said that, since Paul wrote to the Roman Christians, both natural Jews and Gentiles. I did say that chapters 9-11 were primarily written to the natural Jews, and I used the wrong preposition. I said "to", when I should have said "about", so I apologize if that confused you. Those chapters deal with how the majority of the nation of Israel stumbled over Jesus and tried to find salvation in works of the law, rather than putting faith in the word being preached about Jesus. I didn't mean he was writing TO the Jews in those chapters because those Christian Jews didn't stumble over Jesus. The "they" and "them" in chapter 9 seems to refer to the natural Jews who did NOT put faith in Jesus. At any rate, I want to make it clear that I never said the Book of Romans was written only to the Jews.

I meant to say the "they" and "them" in chapter 10 (NOT chapter 9) seems to refer to the natural Jews who didn't put faith in Jesus

While I'm waiting for your response, I'll go to point #3.

You said "If a scholar doesn't agree with your opinion, they're not worth listening to. "
That's rubbish. And uncalled for.

Then you said (as if I had said) "the critics of the book of Barnabas don't know what they're talking about"

What I said was that if someone called "Barnabas" a fraud, he's not much of an authority. That's not my opinion, that's a matter of fact.
First, I doubt you could find a REAL scholar who even said that it was a fraud.

Secondly, to label it a forgery or a fraud could only be true if the writer had claimed to be Barnabas. He didn't. By it's nature, an anonymous letter can't be a forgery, since there is no claim made of it's writership.

I stand by what I said. Someone who calls it a fraud is ignorant or trying to discredit the writer totally by insinuating he's a liar, throwing out the baby with the bath water, and ignoring even the informative facts it contains.

To those who say that marriage was instituted by Jehovah -- wasn't he also the one who originated birth? And to trk who said that pagans didn't celebrate wedding anniversaries - true believers didn't either, did they? Many of these 'reasons' have no real substance.

Answer 1

I appreciate the zeal of the J.W.s in wanting to be separate from the world and to deny the lusts of the flesh but the celebration of a birthday should not be considered "pagan" if it is done in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord.

Having a family celebration that incorporates giving thanks to the Lord for His goodness/kindness and giving tangible expressions of Christian love should not be lumped in the same category as with worldly celebrations.

I personally enjoy ordering a cake that requires an unbeliever to write something like "Praise the Lord for...." or "Thank You Lord for....", knowing that several people who work there will also read the message.

Answer 2

FLOWERS:
Ancient pagans may have offered flowers to the dead but Jehovah's Witnesses don't offer flowers to the dead because they know that "the dead are conscious of nothing at all." (Eccl. 9:5) They may offer flowers to the bereaved LIVING relatives since this is a sign of comfort and is a NON-pagan custom in the Western world.

EMBALMING:
Embalming can best be described as the preserving of a human or animal corpse The faithful and righteous man Jaccob requested that he was to be embalmed and his son, Joseph, honored his request. (Gen. 49:29-31; Gen. Chap. 50) Both Jacob and Joseph were men of faith. (Hebrews 11:21, 22)

The embalming of Jacob allowed for the large, slow-moving caravan of family members and Egyptian dignitaries to travel about 250 miles to take Jacob’s remains to Hebron for burial. (Genesis 50:1-14)

Likewise today, if family members and friends are coming from a distance and there is a desire to view the body, no doubt the remains will have to be embalmed to some degree.

WEDDING ANNIVERSARIES:

There are no pagan origins connected to marriage. God instituted this arrangement Himself.

Answer 3

"It is thought that the large-scale celebration of birthdays in Europe began with the cult of Mithras ("a Hellenistic and Roman GOD"; "the central GOD of Mithraism") which originated in Persia but was spread by soldiers throughout the Roman Empire. Before this, such celebrations were not common;" -Wikipedia; Topic: "Birthday"; Heading: "History of celebration of birthdays in the West"

The Jews "regarded birthday celebrations as parts of IDOLATROUS worship . . . , and this probably on account of the IDOLATROUS rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron GODS of the day on which the party was born." -M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia (1882, Vol. I, p. 817)

Notice how exclusive the worship of the only true God must be: "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips." - Exodus 23:13, NIVSB.

So, if pagan ceremonies or customs are really mixed in with ceremonies or customs that we use today, they are not merely unacceptable - - - they are detestable to God. We must completely get away from these unclean things and not even "touch" them. "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." - 2 Cor. 6:17.

If a holiday or custom is being deliberately participated in by a Christian, it must have absolutely no known pagan religion associations.

So you are asking which is the worse sin...overdrinking or deliberately participating in a custom with pagan ORIGINS that offends God? Here is another hypothetical question: What is worse, burglery or adultery? Why not just avoid from doing either one?

Answer 4

Yes, God is offended by paganisms such as birthday celebrations.

An intentional plan to specifically organize the mass commission of serious sin (such as pagan false worship) by dozens or hundreds certainly seems worse than unintentionally allowing a handful of guests to become incidentally intoxicated (it is the intentional practice of drunkenness which is a serious sin).


The advocates of pagan birthday celebrations perhaps ignore the fact that the Divine Author Himself (Jehovah God) who made sure that literally 100% of the birthday celebrations mentioned in the bible were by debauched enemies of God. It is Jehovah God who determined that the birthdates of the apostles and every other Christian of the first century went unrecorded and uncelebrated according to the best available records.

Regarding birthday celebrations, bible students are encouraged to consider:
: 0% of faithful biblical Jews celebrated birthdays
: 0% of first century Christians celebrated birthdays
: 100% of birthdays celebrated in the bible were by debauched enemies of God (See Mark 6:17-29; Gen 40:19-22)

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/20050101a/article_01.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/20001215/article_01.htm

Answer 5

From our study of the bible, and history, we feel that the early Christians did not celebrate birthdays, which was the custom of the pagans. Since they were taught directly by Jesus, we try to follow their example.

No one is saying that you can't celebrate birthdays, that is your choice. However, as a Jehovah's Witness, it would bother our conscience to do so.

Marriage was instituted by Jehovah. There are no pagan reference to wedding anniversaries.

Answer 6

Let me ask you something Why Jesus never celebrated the birthday of his mother? or his own birthday? or any other?

Why? why? answer you that

Why the bible recorded Jesus in wedding and funeral but never in birthdays parties?

Eclessiastes 7:1 "the day of death than the day of one’s being born. "



For sure Jesus Knew that birthday are pagan feast used to worship the one who was.

We follow his example...

why is so important to celebrate birthdays?

The first miracle of Jesus was in a wedding party... Jesus also went to funeral.. when was in Lazarus house.

And in that time they celebrated birthday only read the book of Mark 6:21 and see it, the ther birthday Genesis 40:20 both celebrated for non-servants of the truly God and in both were dead involved, why the bible recorded such negative example of that kind of celebration?

I know it is a common celebration in this world but remember who is the ruler of this world is not Jesus but Satan (1 John 5:19).

I left the part A of the text cause is the part B that i want to highlight and of course the day a baby born is a day of celebreation (Remember Jesus ´s birth) but after that we don´t see in the bible anything that support celebration but against that yes.

Answer 7

we ALL interpret the bible differently.......

i had a co-worker several years ago that was JW. we had many discussions about her religion because as one that does celebrate birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, Thanksgiving and EVEN Halloween i didn't and still DO NOT understand the reasoning........i tried. i have always been amazed how we get soooooooo many interpretations out of one book...now, i am not extremely religious but i do believe in God and i consider myself a christian.

so more to the point.....how many REALLY celebrate the holidays, perhaps other than Christmas, and are celebrating for religious reasons....i don't believe anyone thinks about the "meaning" behind any of the holidays....everything is too commercialized anymore....it's, for some, about gifts,cards, candy. NOT RELIGION

so, NO, i DO NOT beleive God is offended by these things...if HE is there are going to be alot of people heading "south" when we die

**ADD**
can anyone these days "think"for themseves? why do you hide beind the bible or whatever it is you are hiding behind......i know everyone can beleive what they want but i am not JW and do not want to be ......i've talked to your "people" even in my own home and you will never covince me that i'm going against God because i choose to celebrate my childrens birthdays or what have you...if by celebrating my sons 1st birthday on 7-28 with family, friends, food, cake and oh, my! even the pastor from my church then i guess i'll take my chance and endulge in these "pagen" rituals.........and i'll ask again why so some people with "religion" , alot of them on Yahoo answers, find EVIL in everything....what are you really scared of.........God or what you are doing behind closed doors? remeber he does see everything we do and i am NOT ashamed of anything i do...i have nothing to hide....... don't worry i WILL NOT come back to R/S......i'd like to surroud myself with people who are not puttin you down for eating cake..............I hope God blesses ALL of you...with ideas of your OWN stop hiding behind a book

Answer 8

Thank you for asking about the viewpoint of Jehovah God. It usually is not important to people but it seems to be important to you. Your two scenarios are very interesting; it reminded me of something in the Hebrew Scriptures. In your two scenarios, moderate or immoderate eating, drinking, and entertainment are presented in the midst of two entirely different activities. This manner of asking the question focuses attention on the moderate or immoderate use of eating, drinking, and entertainment. But this is side-stepping the actual issue which is, of course, Yahweh’s viewpoint on celebrating birthdays, or more specifically, why Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays.

Perhaps a consideration of the account at Jeremiah 35:6-18 will help you to see the viewpoint of Jehovah God as respects certain attitudes of refraining from commonly-accepted conduct. Simply put, the Rechabites did not drink wine – they were teetotalers and everybody knew it. Even though it was perfectly acceptable to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation, they positively refused. Yet Yahweh held them up as an example to his own unfaithful people Israel. Why? The Rechabites’ single-minded fidelity to their vow against wine drinking, even when invited by God’s prophet-priest Jeremiah, provided Jehovah with an example to use against the covenant-breaking Israelites. Please read that account to see what Jehovah said.

Jehovah's Witnesses have ample reason for refraining from celebrating birthdays and these have already been shared. (1) First-century Christians did not do so; (2) ancient Jewish people did not do so; (3) the Bible reports negatively on the two celebrations that are mentioned (or at the very least of it, the Bible reports on them in a negative light); (4) everything in the Bible is there for a reason; (5) everything NOT in the Bible is NOT there for a reason; and (6) birthday celebrations are rooted in paganism. A consideration of all these points gives Jehovah's Witnesses ample reason to refrain from such. They do not interfere with what others do but their close consideration of all the available information leads them to believe that there is sufficient reason to keep their distance from such celebrations. At the very least of it, they can be said to “err on the side of caution” and this serves as a protection even as did the faithfulness of the Rechabites. Now if Jehovah God held up the Rechabites as an example of single-minded fidelity, even though it was perfectly fine to drink wine, how much more so will Jehovah God be pleased with Jehovah's Witnesses for our single-minded fidelity to refrain from questionable activities!

As for your question of whether Jehovah God would be more offended with your first scenario or your second, I should think it would be presumptuous to suggest that he has degrees of offense. Immoderation offends Jehovah God, period. There are other things that offend him as well; a Jehovah's Witness would never wish to suggest that God is not offended so long as we participate in a questionable activity with balance and moderation.

I apologize to you if I did not keep this response brief enough as you requested. Please forgive.

Hannah J Paul

Answer 9

It doesn't matter what I think or what you think.

History tells us that faithful Jews did not celebrate birthdays.
they viewed them as pagan and part of false religion.

Jesus didn't celebrate his birthday, 1st century Christians didn't celebrate his or their birthdays either.

It is what Jehovah places in his word the bible that is important.

The bible contain two birthday accounts.

Both were celebrated by non worshipers of Jehovah.
Both had someone die at the party.

Are these accounts in the bible by accident?

Are you suggesting we can worship Jehovah anyway we want?

Are you putting forth the idea we can choose for ourselves what is right and wrong?

2 Cor 6:14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’” 18 “‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”

7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.

I believe you used the phrase in the past: 'Don't be closed minded.'

If you mean we place more importance on God's Word, than your opinion, then Yes we are.

If you mean we reject worldly ideas and partys, then Yes we are.

If you mean we've washed our minds and made them new in the ways of Jehovah, then Yes we are.

Ex 32:4 Then he took [the gold] from their hands, and he formed it with a graving tool and proceeded to make it into a molten statue of a calf. And they began to say: “This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.”5 When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: “There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.” 6 So on the next day they were early in rising, and they began offering up burnt offerings and presenting communion sacrifices. After that the people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time.

7 Jehovah now said to Moses: “Go, descend, because your people whom you led up out of the land of Egypt have acted ruinously. 8 They have turned aside in a hurry from the way I have commanded them to go.

If the 1st century Christians didn't celebrate birthdays, then 21st century Christians don't either.

---
Other points of accused closed mindedness.

Because we use the generic term 'stake' and not the specific word 'cross'. we are closed minded,

Yet You ignore John's eyewitness account and insist a 'non' inspired book 'MUST' be right. The same accusation you make against Jehovah's Witnesses.

You said the book of Romans was written to the Jews and they didn't need to come to know Jehovah and yet Paul in Chapter 1 tells us the book was written to the Gentiles, who needed to come to know both Jehovah and Jesus.

You said Paul wasn't quoting the book of Joel in Romans chapter 10, yet in the NASB there are quotation marks around the quote and it is written in capital letters, which is their way of denoting quotes from the OT along with it's footnote taking you to Joel 2:32.



If a scholar doesn't agree with your opinion, they aren't worth listening to.

The critics of the book of Barnabas don't know what they are talking about, yet the critics of the book 'Two Babylons' do.

You accuse JW's of changing, and picking only the points that agree with our beliefs.

Yet from this side of the fence, I find the same is true with you.

Please remember 1 Cor 4:6 Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and A·pol′los for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]:

“Do not go beyond the things that are written,” in order that YOU may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other.

Agape.


Side point in most countrys embalming is a matter of law and heath.

No we do not send flowers to the dead, since they know nothing.

We have been known to send flowers to the surviving relatives because they need the comfort and our support.

If my grandmother had survived to be 100, I would have been very happy.

Would that require a 'birthday' party, NO.

.

Answer 10

Would you eat a candy that had been lying in the gutter? Of course not. But what if someone had picked it out of the gutter and cleaned it off and offered it to you without you knowing where it came from?

MANY people do not know about the pagan origins of birthdays and how God feels about anything associated with paganiam. Would God hold those people accountable for their ignorance? Surely not.

However, what does it say about people who eventually find out about the pagan origins of birthdays and how God feels about them BUT WILLFULLY IGNORES IT?

No one can fault someone for eating a candy from out of the gutter when they didn't know where it came from. But what does it say about the one who eats a candy from out of the gutter when they DO know where it came from?