Scriptural contradiction between 2Th 1:9 and Rev 14:10?

Question

If the Greek word apo, translated "from" in 2Th 1:9, is interpreted to denote separation, as it often is interpreted to mean, then do you not see Rev 14:10 as a contradiction to that verse? If they do contradict, is it safe to assume that apo did not refer to separation, but a source (i.e. "from" meaning the punishment is produced by God, "from God"), which, in turn, renders the contradiction void?

Eastern Orthodox Christians see punishment happening in the presence of God, harmonizing with Rev 14:10, but with the popular interpretation of 2Th 1:9, others see the punishment as including separation from God.

How can we reconcile these differences and apparent contradictions?

My point is this:

2Th 1:9, with understanding "from" to denote separation (though this may not be the correct understanding), suggests that unrepentant sinners are punished in the absence of God, that being, perhaps, the punishment itself.

Rev 14:10, on the other hand, suggest that the punishment is administered in the presence of the Lamb and his messengers, the punishment being, perhaps, the Lamb himself (for God is referred to as a "consuming fire" and the punishment is referred to take place in the "lake of fire"), for ages of the ages.

In other words, one, with the popular interpretation of the word “from” in 2Th 1:9, speaks of separation from God, while the other speaks of the antithesis, the presence of God.

Most Catholics define hell as separation from God, while Eastern Orthodox Christians see hell as being in the presence of God.

Answer 1

try not to be hung up on that one, when there are thousands of other contradictions.free yourself

Answer 2

In the original manuscripts, the word "from" as utilized in 2thessalonians 1:9, is not separation from God, but rather denotes
where the punishment is coming from; it means that the punishment is coming in the presence of the Lord, and with the glory of the power of the Lord.
Referencing Rev 14:10, obviously if the cup of wrath is being poured out by God then
its consequence would naturally be in the presence of God. Unless you can find a verse that says he poured out the cup and then ran for cover somewhere, its obvious
that it was in his presence, that only requires common sense to determine.

People who see punishment as a separation from God, are reading from Luke 16:26, which describes a great gulf which those are separated from God as
the rich man was separated from Lazarus,
in the arms of Abraham; the rich man could see across the gulf and even speak to those who have "made it to eternal life",
but he cannot cross the gulf. He is awaiting judgement. This is the separation that people are referring to.

Man need not "reconcile differences" and there are no contradictions in Gods Word, either apparent or not. I spent 36 years and learned all three Bible languages to try to find just one controversy. What I found was that there aren't any, only people who do not have the ability to handle the manuscripts or the languages. But good luck if you want to spend the next three
decades looking -

Answer 3

Seperation from GOD is the second death. But we say that GOD is omnipresent. So how is it that someone can be seperate from GOD who is omnipresent existance? When we say "in the sight of the Angels" what are we saying? We must remember that Saint Paul was writing to an audience to be understood at their level of understanding. Saint John was writing an Apocolypse which would be revealed as to its meaning at some future point. We can see things relevant, and are explained within the context of the Bible. But it will only be fully understood when we are told its meaning. As it was with many prophetic dreams that required also that they be interpreted by someone who was gifted with understanding of the prophetic dream . ..

This is done in the sight of the Angels, but how horrible a sight. It is not a chance to gloat over the dead (1) . ..
I am thinking that by being "in the sight of Angels" is meant that this just judgement GLORIFIES GOD and it is known to all the fate of the dead . ..
2 Thessalonians 1:9  Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:
Revelation 14:10  He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb. (2)

Answer 4

Revelation 19: 1 states, " After these things I heard what was AS a loud voice of A great crowd in heaven..." This verse is LIKENING the voice coming from heaven to that of a great crowd. It's a similie. This is not actually the great crowd as mentioned in Revelation 7:9 which states, " After these things I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb..." This "great crowd" is the same as the "other sheep" as mentioned in John 10:16, "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." And in Luke 12: 32 it states, "have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom." These two scriptures show two different groups of people.. one which would have a heavenly place with Jehovah and Jesus in heaven.. as Luke 12:32 says they are given the kingdom. These are the "little flock" or the 144,000. The scripture in Reve 19:1 & John 10:16, show a larger group of people, aka "great crowd" or "other sheep", which will live here on earth in paradise. Hope this helps ! : o )

Answer 5

"These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength," (2 Thes. 1:9)

By themselves, humans will never be able to conquer the ultimate sponsor of evil, Satan the Devil. Soon, though, Jehovah will use Jesus to crush Satan’s head. (Genesis 3:15; Romans 16:20) Jehovah will also direct Christ Jesus to “crush and put an end” to all political systems, many of which have perpetrated so much evil throughout history. (Daniel 2:44; Ecclesiastes 8:9) During this coming day of judgment, all those who “do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus . . . will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.”—2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9; Zephaniah 1:14-18. Once Satan and those who support him are removed, from heaven Jesus will help the survivors to restore the earth to its original condition. Christ will also resurrect all those worthy of the opportunity to live on the restored earth. (Luke 23:32, 39-43; John 5:26-29) In so doing, he will nullify some of the effects of the evil suffered by humanity. Jehovah will not force people to obey the good news about Jesus. However, he is giving people the opportunity to take in the knowledge that leads to life. It is vital that you take advantage of this opportunity now! (Zephaniah 2:2, 3) If you do so, you will learn how to cope with any evil that now blights your life. You will also see how Christ will lead the ultimate conquest of evil.—Revelation 19:11-16; 20:1-3, 10; 21:3, 4.

"he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb." (Rev. 14:10)

Some have viewed the mention here of fire and sulfur (“fire and brimstone,” King James Version) as a proof of the existence of a hellfire. But a brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10. Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.

Answer 6

Is the punishment "separate from God" or is the punishment itself the "separation from God"

I'm not sure there is a contradiction. I'll have to read more.

Thanks for the first thought provoking question of the month.

Answer 7

Once you leave God...Satan takes over.
Satans influence will make you unforgiving, unrepentant and drive you farther from God.

At first you like the freedom to choose anything you want to do.
The ways of a man seem upright in his mind
but the end of it is death.
You lose not only favor and enlightenment spiritually from God. ...but you lose your life for being lawless and rebellious and ungodly.

The time to make amends is now.
The time to get closer to God is now.

Answer 8

I do not see a contradiction. Both verses mean death without hope of a resurrection for those choosing to turn their backs on God and Jesus and the doing of God's will.

They already chose separation from God on their own. We all pay the consequences of our actions. The payoff is death for them, but life for those pleasing to God, doing His will.

Answer 9

The punishment consists of eternal separation from God, so both are right.

Answer 10

Translating begins with understanding the founding principles. I order to translate or interpret scripture, I begin with the definitions given by Christ. If then we use those definitions in place of the words and concepts then we begin to see deeper meaning. For example, if we use Christ's def. for God as Love then we see that 'separation' causes suffering, where there is no love there is suffering and pain. Also, Truth as Light. We can see in addictive behavior an avoidance of truth or the state of being in denial or delusional. When the truth is presented to someone who is heavily invested in a Lie then there is fear, disorientation, anger and feelings of betrayal.

In my examination of a Final Judgement in a scriptural context, I see those who fail to forgive are unforgiven themselves. In one aspect it might be viewed that God condemns them. In another aspect it might be viewed that the person's own attitude of condemnation turns against them as their own private thoughts and actions come to light and contradict their words and actions.

Before you begin splitting prepositions, you must first define the Nouns (or core principles).

Answer 11

No contradiction: God is omnipresent, He is every where so even punishment must be done in His presence, even though the one being punished is not in His presence.