Christians, This is not meant to be offensive, so don't get nasty or shrewd.?

Question

But if you claim that there is a 'new testament' and it invalidated the Torah, why then do so many christians perpetually (mis)quote a(n altered and mistranslated) book of Isaiah among other 'old testament' books to 'validate' your belief that jesus was prophesied in the Torah?
And isn't it your own bible which has this jesus saying he came to uphold the law, not overturn it? So, on what is your system founded? Opposition to judaic practices?
And also, do you believe that an infinite god changed?? How did an infinite being who is believed to have taught "the lord is one" (the shema) suddenly become three?? Does this lack of sense bother you at all?

No rude answers, please; I get enough of those from the missionaries who target us.

Constelation- 1. Read correctly- I wrote Isaiah among other books.
2. The word Torah also refers to the law handed down orally, not just five books.

And to 'nowyou know'--- Jews have survived by adaptation.

And to Jackie, yes they target the jewish neighborhood locally. It's not called paranoia it's called a nuisance. Your answer was actually well-spoken up until that point. If you don't want to answer a question about your religion, why all the proselytising?

Answer 1

Are you speaking of the cerimonial laws specific to Israel? God is working through all nations and all people now. The Cross does away with the Levitical sacrifices (see link below).

Moral laws...

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Jesus death on the cross establishes the Law because if there were no Law, He would not have needed to die for sinners on the cross, in their place. The unsaved will be judged by the Law. The saved...

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Speaking of the Testaments, see the Book of Hebrews. The link provided will make it easy for you to glance over it.

Hebrews outline by Kenneth Wuest
http://jesusislordgod.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=114

Hebrews specifically shows how the two Testaments are tied together. It's just an outline to give you the general flow of the Book.

Peace

Answer 2

First, I would help any answer to your question would be shrewd---after all who wants a dumb answer.

The New Testament does not invalidate the Torah---rather it completes the law.

As far as misquoting Isaiah....English NT translations use a everything from the Dead Sea scrolls to the Masoretic text as sources, so I'm not sure how you determine it is misquoted. You may disagree with the interpretation of the text, but that doesn't make the quote wrong.

We see Jesus as having be prophesied in the Old Testament--and Isaiah in particular has several of those prophesies. If you don't believe in Jesus you may interpret those passages differently.

Yes, Jesus did say He came to complete the Law. As a result, we're no longer bound by the Law--which He also said was given to ameliorate the results of our hard hearts. Instead, we're supposed to be called to an even higher standard--love for God and love for others.

Our system is founded in personal relationship with Christ and our actions are supposed to be governed by the Holy Spirit. Which is supposed to free us to do good. See, we're not just supposed to "not covet you neighbor's wife", but we're supposed to actively seek to benefit our neighbor and actively benefit is wife.

God hasn't changed---rather He gives us more and more revelation. Adam and Eve, for instance, were created but didn't have a covenant. Abraham and Sarah had a covenant, but they didn't have a God who sees them. Hagar had El Roi, but she didn't have deliverance from captivity.The children of Israel had deliverance from Egypt,but not the Promised Land.......during all of this the Infinite God remained the same, He just revealed new glimpses of Himself.

God is one, in Three Person....so no, that's doesn't bother me at all.

Missionaries target you....hmmmm, paranoid much?

Answer 3

The New Testament did not invalidate the Old Testament. Jesus quoted the Old Testament often concerning himself. The entire Old Testament, even starting in Genesis have prophecies, or foreshadowings of a coming savior or messiah. Jesus was the fullfillment of the Law; the law was created as the beginning works of a redemptive plan of God that was finalized by the work of Christ. The law was created that grace could come. Without the law first in place, people could not recognize grace, or the need for it, or the presence of real good and evil, and thus a need for salvation. As far as the lord being one, the actual hebrew word, and greek word used is a word that could be considered a plural singularity. I know that sounds odd, but that is the reality of the original word. There is no direct analogy I can use since nothing can be a real solid comparison between our God and all of his mystery, and what we know, but here are a few examples that don't quite measure up. An egg is one, but if I break it in a bowl and throw in the egg shells, there becomes 3 individual aspects of one thing. Or you could take ice, water, and gas. Or you could take the human with its mind, body, and spirit or soul (that is if you believe in spirit) Or you could take the Church, and how it is supposed to be "one body, with many parts." None of these are exact analogies, but they are examples of plural, singularities. As far as God changing, I disagree, but understand why people feel this way, I would however, admit that God's dealings with man, or his redemptive plan if you will has evolved or matured or grown, whatever you would like to call it. It would take a whole book to explain, but I will be brief. Adam and Eve's fall would have put the single greatest seperation between mankind and God, Every since then it has been like a stair step process of bringing mankind progressively nearer to God. First with the promise to not flood the earth (God entering into his first promise with mankind) Then with the covenant with Abraham (which also was an everlasting covenant) Then with the law, then with more and more revelation of God's redemptive plan in the future (a messiah) Then with the Davidonic covenant (which expanded the abrahamic covenant, and reminded that God's covenant with mankind will not be broken, and then finally with the fullfillment of his plan all along (that had been talked about for literally thousands of years) Jesus's life, death and rise. God has progressively been bringing man back to him, if man is willing, and as far as I can tell there is only one step left in this progression, and that is to have mankind walk with God again, as Adam and Eve did in the cool of the day, and this has been his desire all along, it just hasn't been ours all along. Now this is free for you to make fun of, and I admit that it is not sufficient for a real good conversation, because as I said, it would take a book or books to explain what I believe to be the Biblical truth of the situation. Anyway I hope it didn't sound too much like rambling.

Answer 4

The New Testament doesn't "invalidate" the Torah. JESUS came to fulfill not to destroy the prophets. Of course you answer your own question. Catholics don't oppose Judaic Practices . .. On the contrary, we enhance it by being a priest unto the world. . . . Anyone who will come to CHRIST is on the road to salvation . .. if they do not they are a theif and a robber trying to get to HEAVEN by a way other than THE WAY JESUS CHRIST . .. but JESUS forgives the good theif who repents and calls upon HIM as LORD . ..

It needs to be clear that JESUS is the only WAY to HEAVEN, and that the CHURCH is ONE with CHRIST . ..
We pray for the salvation of all souls . ..

GOD hasn't changed . .. GOD was never known in HIS fullness until JESUS came . .. GOD was among us and the world knew him not . .. We could still say GOD is not known entirely. Who could comprehend GOD? . .. however we are taught by GOD in the person of JESUS CHRIST that the only way to GOD THE FATHER is through JESUS CHRIST THE SON.

-LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Amen.

:Responsorial edit: The Old Testament has three major parts the Pentatuech or Torah which contitutes the Mosaic Law, the Prophets, and the Writings which are primarily historical. As i understand these things.

:responsorial edit: We don't practice ritual sacrifice anymore because the only sacrifice acceptable to GOD ALMIGHTY is the perfect sacrifice of the cross, by which all our sins are forgiven.

Answer 5

No offense taken. But does it make sense to you that if Christians believe the OT was invalidated by the NT, they would even include the OT in the canon of Scripture? Why not just toss it completely in that event? Or make it a separate, "historical" text? We believe that the new covenent completes and fulfills the old. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17)

There's a verse in 1 Timothy that states "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness". The only Scripture extant at the time was that which was read in synagogue. None of the above amounts to invalidation; quite the contrary.

As for the Trinitarian doctrine, I know it's difficult to understand, but it is not incompatible with "the lord is one". In the story of creation it says "let us make man in our image, according to our likeness". We believe that God (singular!) is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And it does make sense, but only when the entire canon of Scripture -- Old and New Testament -- is considered as a whole.

Answer 6

Isaiah is not in the Torah. the Torah includes only the first five books and most Christians do not dismiss the old testament, they just emphasize the fact that the new testament also includes gentiles. The great promise to Abraham is in the Torah and so are the ten commandments and it still holds true.

Answer 7

The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people performed rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.

"'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah....But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31,33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"

Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not bound by the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift, not as a reward for any of our good works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance – now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”

Recommended Resource: The Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul Enns.

The Trinity was spoken of in the Old Testament.
The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

Recommended Resource: Making Sense of the Trinity: Three Crucial Questions by Millard Erickson and The Forgotten Trinity by James White.

Answer 8

Jesus was prophesied in the OT and fulfilled every last one about Him. God isn't 3, .....there's God the Father, God the Son who sits by the Father in Heaven. And they are One in Spirit (Holy Spirit). you can't get to the Father except thru the Son. Everything you claim in the question seems like ignorance as to what the Bible actually teaches about it, sorry so blunt?

Answer 9

Christians generally believe in both testaments, Jews call it the Torah and don't believe in the new testement I think.
....and the Torah is only the first 5 books.

I am a Christian and I believe in both testements.
I think you got your reliegions mixed up.

And i beleive that many people read the Bible and get totally different messages from it, it all depends on your perspective, and also whose telling you about it, and the way they believe it is to be interpreted. Inn my opinion, the more you read the more you understand.
=)

ps. thanks for not being rude.

Answer 10

Jesus did away with the law as far as Salvation. The Jewish law leads to death. Only Jesus can save. God has not changed. The Torah taught that the trinity was there from the beginning.