Small Circle Jujitsu?

Question

I remember when the Gracies ran little bitty ads in Black Belt magazine. They ran those ads for years. No one really cared about BJJ until Hoyce started choking people with his gi in the early days of the UFC. Now, beyond question, BJJ and Gracie Jujitsu have become one of the most popular styles in the world.

My question is this; how does BJJ compare to Professor Wally Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu?

I have limited experience (though some) with grappling arts. I'm interested in everyone's perceptions, MMA's, Traditional Karate, etc etc.

I look forward to some great answers!

Answer 1

Two different worlds, both based on some of the same premises. Small-circle was based on various Japanese Jujutsu forms, incorporating mostly wrist, shoulder, and finger dislocations, nerve attacks to the body once placed in a position of disadvantage, or subdued with pressure point striking. Brazillian jujutsu was based on Kodokan Judo as taught to the Gracie family by Count Koda, so it has a natural affinity for Judo chokes, locks and submissions, especially gi chokes.

Now, this is where both arts started, but both have gone through changes. Small-circle has found itself incorporating more dislocations, immobilizations, and trips than originally put in, as different students-turned-teacher begin teaching and incorporating their own curriculum points. But ultimately, it is based on economy of movement, efficiency of travel and immobilizing the opponent quickly. The "small circle" is an allusion to both the manner in which the wrist and fingers are manipulated in most locks, and the movement utilized to break wrist/forearm grabs in self-defense.

In BJJ, we find that the sport is increasingly specializing in positionary fighting, ie. moving from guard to side mount to mount to back, etc. to get submissions from easier positions, rather than getting a submission from the initial position one finds oneself in. This is a newer way to interpret the art, as in the 80's and early 90's, you would find a BJJ grappler getting plenty of submissions from weaker positions, since they also practiced economy of movement, as opposed to position-before-submission, as today. Also, the gi chokes have been toned down as alot of competitors fight MMA or ADCC (no-gi grappling) rules now, limiting them to joint manipulations and none gi involved chokes.

Ultimately, the comparison is that Smallcircle is mainly standup oriented, quick submissions from finger or wrist grabs, but is alot harder to use since it takes years of memorization of the technique to truly get into those positions against other trained artists, especially other jujutsuka; and BJJ is primarily a large joint manipulation system from a grounded position, culminating in submission from joint locks and chokes and the ability to move from less dominant positions up the scale to more dominant.

Answer 2

Small Circle Jujitsu

Answer 3

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I know Wally Jay. His small circle jujitsu is as legitimate as any style. Some years ago I attended a seminar that Professor Jay was teaching, along with many others. Professor Jay easily took control of several highly skilled martial artists at the seminar. Several on my Yudansha (Black belt students) were in the seminar. Some of them were skeptical of the style before the seminar. Afterward they wanted to know as much about it as they could. Anyone that thinks that small circle jujitsu does not work has obviously not had it applied on them. Someone made a comment about some techniques not working on people that were high on drugs, ...etc. While that is true, all martial arts may be limited by that situation. Pain compliance may not work on those that are drunk or stoned. But not all small circle techniques are pain compliance techniques. In those situations the thing to do is to keep the attacker off balance. not an easy thing to do, but it works. If they can't get their balance, they can;t do much to you.

Answer 4

I love both, and both have their place. Small Circle Jujitsu (or the parts I learned) are still a defensive maneuver to manipulate joints (a lot of the time this is small joint manipulation). This is very good info to use, but tough to pull off without hitting or shocking someone first (unless they are impaired some other way).

BJJ is really great in that it moves onto larger joint manipulation and body control. The issue with this is that you are always on the ground. So, when you take Joe Snuffy down and dislocate his shoulder, his two buddies can gut stomp you through the floor.

They compare in that they are related, but the application is very different (as with all styles).

Answer 5

Wally Jay's Small Circle Ju-Jitsu has its foundation in Japanese Ju-Jitsu and it is very good but has some limitations-most martial arts do in some ways. The Gracies took Japanese Ju-Jitsu several steps further with respect to submission holds, chokes, and the ground fighting aspects and how to maneuver your opponent into a position of vulnerability and made it more practical and more capable than its Japanese forerunners. There are different styles of Japanese Ju-Jitsu and all have their strengths and weaknesses. As with many Japanese and Okinawan martial arts traditional ways of thinking and acceptance of new ideas comes hard and came even harder twenty years ago.

If you notice Gracie Ju-Jitsu, being more progressive, is evolving and changing now and incorporating things like ankle locks and knee bars much more in their training and acceptance of those techniques which I believe they did not ten years ago just as Japanese Ju-Jitsu also is. I think the world is big enough for both and this is a great time to be studying either.

Answer 6

Small Circle JJ is a greal example of the simplicity of Ju Jitsu. GrandMaster Ron Van Browning has some moves that are unbelieveable -easy to do and highly effective. As JJ is, a well versed system of joint control.

Answer 7

I took a class with Jay at Saint Mary's College back in '78. Back then, he showed us the economy of movement necessary with his style. It wasn't showy, and you didn't really reach out to touch someone. But if an opponent got in your range, you could quickly and effortlessly take him down. We all found it a great defensive style.