Logging Dual Recieved and Pilot-in-Command?

Question

When I was in flight training my instructor would fill out my log book, put the flight time in, but would NOT fill in the PIC column. I'd ask about it but always seemed like a gray area and never received a clear answer. From what I've read, I can have that as logged PIC...but it was never entered as so. Can I go back to my logbook and fill in past PIC flight time that was never done so, that is, when I was the sole manipulator of the flight. Granted the flight instructor had the final authority of the flight, but this appears to be a gray area...can someone clarify?

Answer 1

While you are a student pilot, you may only log PIC time when you are solo. As a private pilot or greater, you can log PIC basically any time you're touching the controls (within reason) including dual instruction. AOPA has a nice article clarifying logging PIC time in their online library.

Answer 2

Ok some misinformation in some of the other answers. This is not a gray area at all. I am assuming you are talking about logging time when you were a student pilot. The regulations are very clear. You may only log PIC time as a student when you are the sole occupant of the aircraft. Period.

As far as logging PIC after your checkride, you may log PIC any time you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which you are rated and current, even if you are receiving instruction for your instrument rating. The instructor will probably log the time as PIC as well. He will be the acting PIC while you are on an IFR flight plan but you may log the time as PIC. There is difference between acting PIC and logging PIC.

Answer 3

Only one person can log PIC on any given flight. The manipulator of the controls is not what determines PIC, but rather which pilot is in charge and the final authority for the flight. For example, on a commercial airline flight, the Captain is PIC, no matter if the first officer does all the actual flying.
You cannot be PIC if you do not have a license, unless you are solo.

You may only log PIC on a flight which you are qualified to act as PIC. For example, a private pilot receiving instruction for his instrument rating may not log PIC on those training flights that were flown under instrument conditions, but may log the other time. If you are receiving a check out for a new aircraft, you may not log PIC until you are actually checked out and legal to fly that aircraft as PIC.

On flights with an instructor or another pilot, you two must agree which of you will log the PIC time. Even if you are both qualified as PIC, only one can log it. Obviously, two people can't be in the same position at the same time.

Gee whiz - SIC can only be logged on an aircraft that legally requires two qualified pilots to operate, such as a commercial jet.

You may go back and make corrections in your logbook - but only if your instructor makes the same corrections in his logbook and deletes the PIC time from his records that you want to log in your book. No double dipping allowed per FARs. PIC is short for the 'pilot in command', not 'pilot(s) in command.' The FAA does not allow for multiple pilots to claim the same position on a flight.

Answer 4

The short answer is: if you are rated in the aircraft, then both you and the instructor can log PIC time.

Logging PIC is different than acting as PIC. The only thing grey about when you can and can not log PIC time is peoples' understanding of the rules. The requirements to act as PIC are spelled out in FAR 61.3 and 61.31. The requirements to log PIC are spelled out in FAR 61.51.

The person who is acting as PIC is the one who is responsible for the safety of the flight. Only one person can act as PIC, and that person should be decided before the flight. One or more persons can log PIC time for a flight, including persons who may not be qualified to act as PIC.

The conditions under which you can "log" PIC time are spelled out in FAR 61.51. In summary, if you satisfy one of the following conditions, you can log PIC time:
1) You are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are rated.
2) You are the sole occupant of the aircraft.
3) You are acting as the PIC in an aircraft when more than one pilot is required either by the aircraft type certificate, or by the rules under which the flight is conducted (and you have a private or higher certificate).
4) You are a flight instructor giving dual instruction.
5) You are an ATP acting as PIC and giving instruction on an operation requiring an ATP.

On a dual flight in which the student is rated in the aircraft, both the student and the instructor can log PIC time. The student because of condition 1), and the instructor because of condition 4). This is true even if the student is not qualified to act as PIC. This could be the case when
* the student does not have a current flight review,
* they do not have a valid medical certificate,
* the flight is conducted under IFR but the student does not have an instrument rating (e.g., instruction toward an instrument rating), or
* the flight is in an aircraft that requires a FAR 61.31 endorsement to act as PIC (e.g., a high performance or complex aircraft) that the student does not have.

Condition 2) is what allows student pilots to log PIC time while in solo flight. Student pilots, or pilots not rated in the aircraft in which they are receiving instruction can not log PIC time in dual flight because they do not satisfy all of Condition 1). The ability to log solo time as PIC time was added in 1997 and is retroactive for any time logged before then.

Also consider the case of one pilot flying under the hood, with another pilot as safety pilot. If the safety pilot is qualified to act as PIC and agrees to do so before the flight, both pilots could log PIC time. The pilot flying under the hood because of condition 1), and the safety pilot because of condition 3). Condition 3) is satisfied because the flight rules under which the simulated instrument flight is conducted (FAR 91.109) requires two pilots, and the safety pilot is qualified to act as PIC and has agreed to do so.

Note that there are cases where a pilot could be qualified to act as a safety pilot, but not qualified to act as PIC. For example, if the flight is conducted on an IFR flight plan, but the safety pilot is not instrument rated, then only the pilot (who is instrument rated) can log PIC time. To act as a safety pilot, the pilot need only have the appropriate category and class ratings (FAR 91.109).

I have also heard of cases where flight schools have three people in the plane logging PIC time. A pilot under the hood, a safety pilot "acting" as PIC and a CFI in the back seat giving "instruction". The pilot logs PIC under condition 1), the safety pilot under condition 3) and the CFI under condition 4). FAR 91.109 states that an aircraft to be used for flight instruction must have dual controls, or throwover controls if it is used for instrument instruction, but it does not explicitly state that the CFI must be at the other control station. While a strict reading of the FARs makes such a flight technically legal, I have heard that the FAA frowns on such practices and has told flight schools that do this to stop. After all, what kind of "instruction" is the CFI going to be giving from the back seat.

Answer 5

When I was in training, the only PIC time logged was solo. When the instructor was aboard, he was the PIC.
Whenever I took my checkride, the examiner filled in my log and passed me. He wrote my time in the PIC column.

Answer 6

For your answer:
-A student pilot may log PIC time only when he/she is the sole occupant of the aircraft (exception for airship category) while training for a pilot certificate and has a current solo flight endorsement and/or
-A pilot may log PIC time when he/she is the sole occupant of the aircraft; is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges; or is acting as PIC where more than one pilot is required (FAR 1.1, 61.51 [e]).

For further definition (if you re a AOPA member which I suggest you do as many courses are free and available to you) in the "Search Column, type PIC" for a complete breakdown.

Answer 7

Yea, it's a real gray area but when I have my hands on the controls I AM the PIC