Did Paul glorify the stauros - cross or stake - of Jesus' death? Would you? For Jehovah's Witnesses and others

Question

I have repeatedly read on Yahoo Answers statements similar to "we wouldn't cherish or glorify a gun used to kill a loved one, would we?"

The answer is always No. Of course not.

Yet Paul said in Galatians 6:14 that he would glorify the instrument - the stauros - of Jesus. The King James Version uses "glory"; the New World Translation uses "boast". Would you boast about a gun used to kill a loved one? I wouldn't.

So if you are someone who thinks it's wrong to "boast" or "glory" n the torture stake of Jesus, do you think it was wrong for Paul to view Jesus' stauros (as a symbol of his sacrifice) in such a respectful way? Do you think he should have spoken contemptuously of the stauros instead?

Please note: This question is about proper RESPECT, not idolatrous WORSHIP. Please don't quote scriptures about idolatry.

hairdresser and albert...thank you

emmy...I think you hit the nail on the head.

Isweet121
I did read the context. But you avoided answering the question.

cathorsec
So are you saying that Paul used the "torture stake" as a symbolism of "the fact that Jesus died for us"?

Is that symbolism worthy of respect? Or contempt? Choose one, please.

amorro.....

I totally agree. So did Paul advocate respect or contempt for the (symbolism of ) the torture stake?

Choose one, please.

danni

I didn't assert that the stauros was the focal point. I asserted that Paul used the stauros to symbolize - as you said - Jesus' ransom. Please read the verse - Paul doesn't mention the ransom, yet you understood that is what he meant by the stauros of Jesus. Thus the symbolism.

Would you say "I will boast in the gun that killed my mother?" I think not. Apparently there's a difference or Paul would never have made such a statment.

Thanks for your directness.

My point is this: I'm weary of reading on Yahoo Answers that the instrument of Christ's death (even if it's a plain stake) should be viewed with contempt, and that "first-century Christians" would view it as a hated and contemptible thing. Paul was a 1st century Christian and he did NOT view the stauros as someone would view the gun that killed a family member. He would NOT have made the statements he made about the instrument of Jesus' death if he viewed it in the same way that you view it. Your comments were exactly opposite of Paul's. Of course he was aware that Jesus suffered a horrible death on it, but he didn't focus on that; he focused on what it accomplished: the ransom. He used it as a symbol, which is why the instrument of his death has become the symbol of Christianity.
Look up all the scriptures about the stauros and see how Paul used the words stauros and stauroo. He used them as symbols of something he valued, not despised.

danni
I'm not looking to justify using a crucifix..if you knew me, you would know I've never worn or owned one. You would also know that I think it's possible Jesus died on a pole, not a cross.
But this question is about our ATTITUDE toward Jesus' stauros and the pictorial representation of that stauros which has come to be so closely associated with Jesus that it is universally and immediately recognized as the symbol of Jesus Christ. Even if it's not technically correct, it exists and for a CHRISTIAN to call it a phallic symbol or abominable is beyond explanation. One JW keeps saying that to glorify the stauros would be to glorify the "wrong deed" committed on it. In effect, he says that Paul was glorifying a "wrong deed".

About a century before Constantine, Minucius Felix wrote that pagans accused Christians of worshiping a criminal and his crux. Felix denied it. I wouldn't expect pagans to understand the significance of the stauros, but Christians should.

danni

Also, for a CHRISTIAN to not discern the difference between a gun used to kill another human - no matter how important they might be - and the stauros of Jesus' death indicates no comprehension of what the stauros represented to Paul and the early Christians. To say that it's the "same thing" indicates a lack of awareness of the value of Jesus' death, as if it were no different than anyone else's.

I'm not sure where respect ends and veneration begins. Actually, I think that veneration is only respect, but the person, place or thing in question is of a religious nature. Do we venerate the Bible? Or do we just respect it? If someone wore a replica of a Bible around their neck, would you declare it a "graven image" and speak degradingly of it?

You say you are "neutral" about the "stauros". I hope you'll read all the Scriptures about it, and see if Paul was "neutral".

danni

I ran out of space the first 2 times

Maybe I've given you the impression that I'm a big supporter of wearing and using crosses. Not at all. Totally unnecessary and to use in worship is too close to idol worship, to my way of thinking. But to see a cross and feel revulsion - to think of pagan gods and phalluses - instead of the symbolism it was originally intended to convey - is not supported by the Scriptures as far as I can see.

Words like "excrement" "distasteful" and "offensive" are the words Jehovah's Witnesses use to describe what Paul said he gloried in. Symbolically, of course. But that IS what we we're speaking about - symbolism. Paul used it orally - as time went on, it was also used visually. And so today - like it or not - there exists a visual symbol of the instrument of Jesus' death - a visible expression of what Paul expressed orally.

Isn't it possible for a person to simply respect what is represented by the cross without being labeled an idol worshiper? Didn't Jehovah's Witnesses at one time wear crosses? I'm sure they were aware that the Bible says not to worship idols - do you think they were idol worshipers? Or do you think they just had respect for what the cross represented to them?

Achtung, that is an excellent point about the copper serpent. I think, though, that it's pretty clear they were worshiping it by burning incense to it. Surely you don't think that wearing an item of jewelry is comparable to burning incense before an object so as to perform an act of worship.

Nevertheless, your point is well taken. I've considered that example before, and possibly it's one reason why I have never bought or worn a cross even as jewelry. Because even though I don't view it as anything more than a symbol, I'm aware that it IS an object of devotion for a lot of other people.

As I understand, Jehovah's Witnesses at one time did not object to wearing crosses. I'm pretty sure their attitude was the same as mine - an attitude of appreciation for what it represented - nothing more.

A person might wear a wedding ring and value it as a symbol, but wearing jewelry, even if religiously oriented, has never been an act of worship, has it?

Thank you for answering.

Achtung, that is an excellent point about the copper serpent. I think, though, that it's pretty clear they were worshiping it by burning incense to it. Surely you don't think that wearing an item of jewelry is comparable to burning incense before an object so as to perform an act of worship.

Nevertheless, your point is well taken. I've considered that example before, and possibly it's one reason why I have never bought or worn a cross even as jewelry. Because even though I don't view it as anything more than a symbol, I'm aware that it IS an object of devotion for a lot of other people.

As I understand, Jehovah's Witnesses at one time did not object to wearing crosses. I'm pretty sure their attitude was the same as mine - an attitude of appreciation for what it represented - nothing more.

A person might wear a wedding ring and value it as a symbol, but wearing jewelry, even if religiously oriented, has never been an act of worship, has it?

Thank you for answering.

Answer 1

It was our sin that sent Jesus to the cross, and by that sacrificial death on the cross Jesus overcame death. He is the resurrection an the Life, any who believe in Him, though we die mortal deaths, will live eternally by the power of His resurrection. We glory in the cross because by it Jesus put away my sin, he canceled the debt against me, and abolished death so that I could live with Him. It is not comparable to a gun. Though Jesus was crucified, we do not glory that He died, we glory in what He accomplished through his dying and his resurrection.

Answer 2

We do not focus on the instrument of Jesus' death, but rather the fact that he provided his perfect life as a propitiatory sacrifice to redeem us from Adamic sin and death.

Paul was "boasting" in the sense that he wanted to declare to others the hope that the ransom sacrifice provided to mankind. The focal point is not the stauros, as you are asserting, but the gift of Jesus' ransom.

We respect the fact that Jesus died for our sins, but we neither honor nor dishonor the instrument of his death. We do not venerate a false symbol of his death- the cross- and worship and/or respect it since it is a pagan symbol that predates Christianity and Jesus by thousands of years.

*So what's your point then, really? Yes, we realize that Paul was referring to Christ's sacrifice- how do you correlate that with your response to me? I think you forget that Paul was a highly educated Jew who lived 2,000 years ago and wrote these words in a language other than English- God forbid he wax a bit of poetic on us!*

I have mentioned no contempt for the stake Jesus died on- it is, however, still the instrument that caused his death. Just as a gun in itself is not a bad thing until it hurts someone you love, so a pole is not until it hurts a person you love. Even then, the staruos is simply a tree upon which Jesus was hung to die. We place neither value NOR contempt upon it.

The point of the gun is that it is a visible reminder of how a person died- why would you want to carry that around? Or assign it honor? Even more importantly, why on Earth would a true Christian want to venerate a pagan symbol that was NOT used to impale Christ? And especially since the Bible explicitly forbids using images OF ANY KIND in worship?

If you are looking for justification for using the crucifix then you are not going to find it. "What does light have to do with darkness?"

Paul and TRUE first century followers of Christ did not revere the instrument of Jesus' death. What is the point of respecting a pole? I think you are straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel. The stauros is a word that Paul used to represent Jesus' sacrifice. No more, no less.

Jesus himself used the term "torture stake" to illustrate that the path of true Christians would not be an easy one- would you say that is to be revered as well? No. We do respect the Bible and it's invaluable teachings, but we do not worship it. The only worship we give is that which belongs to Almighty God.

No inanimate object is worthy of the reverence that you incorrectly attribute to the apostle Paul. "Boasting" in the sacrifice of Jesus is 180 degrees from holding his instrument of death in high regard.

You give Paul and the tree that killed Jesus way too much credit! Lighten up my friend :0)

*The Scriptures tell us to "hate what is bad." God decreed that idol worsip and graven images were like excrement to Him- why would we regard that as anything but offensive? If it is distasteful to God then it should be to us as well.

Personally I do not disrespect the crucifix, but I will admit that it does annoy me that so many regard it as the symbol of Christianity- to worship God one does not need any symbols.*

Answer 3

Paul's references to "the torture stake" ("cross" in many bibles) were not intended to evoke a visualization of the shape of Christ's instrument of death, but to evoke the sacrificial death itself.

Would it be proper to transfer even a tiny bit of one's godly devotion to a thing (a "creation") instead of the Creator?

No.

Note that when true worship was being restored in ancient Israel, the godly ruler recognized that the people had begun viewing Moses' centuries' old "copper serpent" improperly. Clearly there was nothing wrong with mention that tool and using it to remind devout persons of their need for salvation. But when it became clear that the "copper serpent" tool had become an icon, it was smashed and destroyed despite its important place in Israel's heritage. Although there is no indication that anyone literally WORSHIPPED the icon, reverence of it distracted from worship of God Almighty.

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/20050508a/article_01.htm

Answer 4

Jesus stated in prayer to his Father "Sanctify them via potential of the certainty. Your be conscious is fact (John 17:17) and the apostle Paul stated at Titus a million:2 that God can not lie .(additionally see Numbers 23:19). consequently, as witnesses of Jehovah and followers of Jesus Christ, they adhere to the Bible through fact the fabulous authority on faith (the way of life). consequently, this is significant Jehovah's Witnesses that no longer basically the way wherein Jesus died be precise yet all issues concerning Jehovah God, his purpose and his son, Jesus, be precise in accordance to God's be conscious, the Holy Scriptures (the Bible).) with reference to using the be conscious "pass", Vines Expository Dictionary on words of the hot testomony states that the popular translation of the be conscious "stauros" is an upright stake or pole. The words used interior the Greek Interlinear Scriptures with reference to the potential of Jesus' dying are "stauros" (basically an upright stake or pole) no longer "crux" (pass) and "stauroo" (held on a stake) no longer "crucified". additionally, the end results of being impaled to a stake with the hands nailed above the top and the legs right this moment down with the ft nailed to the stake might reason the tkdiaphragm to break down through lack of the increasing of the chest and lungs interior of a short volume of time ensuing interior the lack to respire, and specific dying. The Jews have been in charge to execute Jesus (John 19:5-7, 14-sixteen; Luke 23:20-25; Mark 20:10-15), no longer the Romans. real, the Israelites under the Mosaic regulation had specific standards for offering blood sacrifices; in spite of the undeniable fact that, those serving Jehovah God under his son's (Jesus Christ's) appointed rulership are no longer under the regulation of Moses--Hebrews 9:a million-13, 23, 24. consequently, under the hot covenant (Luke 22:19, 20) Jesus supplied his ransom sacrifice to God in heaven as a propitiatory sacrifice for mankind's sins (a million John 2:2).

Answer 5

Jesus’ death on the torture stake was the basis for removing the Law, which had separated the Jews from the non-Jews. Therefore, by accepting the reconciliation made possible by Jesus’ death, both Jews and non-Jews could become “one body to God through the torture stake.” (Eph 2:11-16; Col 1:20; 2:13, 14) This proved to be a stumbling block for many Jews, since they insisted that circumcision and adherence to the Mosaic Law were essential for gaining God’s approval. That is why the apostle Paul wrote: “Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? Then, indeed, the stumbling block of the torture stake has been abolished.” (Ga 5:11) “All those who want to make a pleasing appearance in the flesh are the ones that try to compel you to get circumcised, only that they may not be persecuted for the torture stake of the Christ, Jesus. Never may it occur that I should boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been impaled to me and I to the world.” (Ga 6:12, 14) For confessing Jesus’ death on the torture stake as the sole basis for gaining salvation, Paul was persecuted by the Jews. As a consequence of this confession, to the apostle the world was as something impaled, condemned, or dead, whereas the world viewed him with hatred, as a criminal impaled on a stake.

Answer 6

well, you have to read the context of the scripture. He was talking about circumcision not being necessary anymore, since Jesus's death abolished the Mosaic Law. So he was showing his appreciation for Jesus's sacrifice, and he was preaching about it. There were some people that wanted to keep circumcision as a law, and they were persecuting Paul for confessing Jesus's sacrifice as the only basis for salvation.

Answer 7

Paul was not gloifing the torture stake, but the fact that Jesus did die for us. He had the proper view of boasting.

David helps us to appreciate this, as he continues in the 34th Psalm: “In Jehovah my soul will make its boast.” (Ps. 34:2) Knowing Jehovah and being one of his servants is certainly something worth boasting about. Of course, it must be boasting free from any suggestion of self-righteousness, for we do not boast in ourselves but, as David said, “in Jehovah.”—See also Galatians 6:14.

We can boast in what Jehovah has done for us, how he has preserved us, guided us, provided for us. On the other hand, it would be improper to boast because we may, because of circumstances, be able to share more fully in the preaching work. The apostle Paul noted: “If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me.”—1 Cor. 9:16.

Answer 8

The cross is a symbol to be revered as a reminder of the great sacrifice of Jesus...no self respecting christian worships it.

Answer 9

The cross represents death to the SELF life which is contrary to the Spirit of God......once we die to self...we are ressurrected in newness of life with Jesus Christ ....and we are far above the dead works of the sinful self life...

...therefore we glory in the thing that brings death to the sinful flesh because it gives us victory over sin in this life.