Mormons: given the vast knowledge we have from genetics and anthropology...?

Question

How do you reconcile the fundemental claims of LDS?

e.g.
- NO ancient cities found in the Americas.

- DNA and anthropological evidence show that humans came to the Americas from Asia 12-20 thousand years ago.


Thank you for your time.

Sorry Fotomama: I did not think most people were THAT out of touch. I'll be right back.

"Guns Germs and Steel" by Jarred Diamond

"Mapping Human History: Genes, Race, and Our Common Origins" by Steve Olson

"Genes, Peoples, and Languages" by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza

"The Great Human Diasporas: The History of Diversity and Evolution" by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza

"Deep Ancestry: Inside the Genographic Project" by Spencer Wells

"The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue" by Merritt Ruhlen

"Before the Dawn: Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors" by Nicholas Wade

"The History and Geography of Human Genes" by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza

"The Complete World of Human Evolution" by Chris Stringer

"Smithsonian Intimate Guide to Human Origins" by Carl Zimmer

That's a few to get you started. Let me know if you what more.

note: I don't think the home-schooling thing is working out for you.

Jacob: let me know how that faith healer works out for you when you need brain surgery. (BTW: did you pray your message to me or type it on your computer?)

Avatar_defender_of_t:

the short answer is that I do not know the stories you are talking about so I can not debunk them now. However, I find it interesting that for a long as LDS has been around, no one has really ever taken those claims seriously (aside from LDS members).

As for your "holy spirit" testamony... It sounds no different than what I here from Muslims that experience God telling them their religion is right, or Hindus who experience the same, or any other Christian religious sect for that matter.

As for my "flimsy evidence"... sorry you don't agree with mainstream science. Do you do that with all things or just where your faith is concerned?

I guess I'm getting my question answered in a round-about way...by not understanding the science (or science itself), by being in denial of reality and holding out for that day when you hope all of science will suddenly be overturned. This seems so much to me like the creationists and their denial of reality.

Answer 1

Please be advised that 'Fotomania' believes that Jeff Lindsay is the returned personage of Hugh Nibley, and should be obeyed, revered and believed.

Seriously, I reviewed several dozen archaeological societies, forums and university research departments looking for recent abstracts, treatises and theories on Semitic evidence of settlements or other information tied into the BoM.

There isn't any.

Lindsay and the Maxwell House of Cards takes Nibley's obscene methodology to even greater depths to totally obfuscate, confuse and derail the preponderance of evidence of current thought that the Amerindians are 99% from Mongolian heritage (the other 1% appears european), and the only civilizations of note were in Central to South America. None of those civilizations show evidence of a "Lehite" presence.

The "limited geography" theory is not consistent with Joseph Smiths story. The anachronisms are evident of a country boys view of his world from the 19th century. No pollen from the grains grown by the BoM peoples have been discovered or identified in the soil layer cores attributed to the period - ANYWHERE in the Americas. And soil samples have been taken EVERYWHERE.

The LDS Church has stolen, beaten and raped the cultural identity of millions of native americans and polynesians with their awful and factless tripe concerning their "origins" as a basis to pander their 'membership' into the church.

Woe unto them...

Mr G: "Not all Native Americans are claimed to be what we call lamanties" - are your disputing Joseph Smith? Are receiving new revelation? Are you altering doctrine - again?

Answer 2

I am not a Mormon but I find your claim that we have vast knowledge of anything quite amusing. If all there is to know in the universe could fill an ocean we know about a half thimble full.

We are all just seekers of answers. We "know" next to nothing. Do not be so sure of what is fact and what is fiction, what is reality and what is conjecture. Religious people are far better off than most non-believers. At least they understand that their beliefs are based on faith not fact. Many others are in the same boat but think they are the captain.

Who said anything about a faith healer? I am a non-religious person. Just get a kick out of people who are so convinced that our limited abilities can explain everyting. I know science is all we have but it is imperfect at best. We don't even know how much we don't know yet.

.

Answer 3

Actually there were ancient cities in the americas..

Chitzen itza and a few more cities of the mayas.

As for dna and other anthropological evidence.

Not all Native Americans are claimed to be what we call lamanties.

As for Asia being the place where they cames from thousand of years ago. Isn't Palestine in Asia?

Mr. Peepers claim they were all Mongolian....is a joke.
No Mr. Peepers Joseph Smith never said all Native Americans are Lamanites...There are many tribes of Native Americans.

I can't prove scientifically that any Native america north, central or south has come from Palestine. The Book of Mormon like the Bible in my opinion aren't science books.
They are faith based books. You can't prove faith based books. You can believe or not believe.

Answer 4

I would suggest reading 1491. It is a well documented book about ancient cities in the Americas and about the disagreement about the Asia hypothesis. Nevertheless, LDS doctrine does not claim ALL humans in the Americas are Israelites. It only claims that a small group, now extinct, was.

Ultimately, I have prayed and received a witness that the Book of Mormon is a true document. If you read it and pray sincerely, you can know this as well.

Answer 5

a million - at the same time as Alma the more youthful died the individuals responded that he would were "buried through the hand of the Lord like Moses". elsewhere we locate information about it - in truth as a head of a dispensation he would were translated, all heads of dispensations were. 2 - They actually appeared to Joseph Smith and others to fix priesthood keys through the particular laying on of palms. 3 - no longer utilising "assumption" is cultural, once you're saying that note the Virgin Mary includes recommendations and subsequently might want to reason confusion. we extremely have quite a few words to lead away from confusion, and they paintings. for instance, we talk of the Godhead and continuously have, maximum different religions believe that yet nevertheless call it the regularly happening time period "trinity", yet what does trinity propose? over eighty% of people outline the note "trinity" to propose what we call "the Godhead". Transfiguration is a non everlasting change in someone allowing them to see some thing mortal eyes might want to no longer witness with out the change, yet then they pass again. Translation is an enduring change in them (everlasting through mortal words, yet no longer eternal, it is not any longer a resurrection otherwise those previous Christ might want to no longer have gained it).

Answer 6

The Book of Mormon has been proven to be a total fraud time and time again. Ask any non LDS Meso-American Historian or Archaeologist if any proof has ever been found to support the BoM and they unanimously say NO! Even LDS Historians and Archaeologists have been ex-communicated for telling the truth that the BoM is a fairytale. Why do you think nobody ever heard of Nephites, Lamanites, Jeredites, Cureloms, ect. ect. ect.

The Church cant even come up with a map to put in the back of the BoM so the faithful can follow along with the stories. Any Bible has detailed maps telling all about the places and events that happened in Biblical times yet the Bom cant even find any of the big places like the City of Nephi or Land of Zarehimla or anything else.

Thats because Joseph Smith made the whole thing up . The Bom is the laughingstock of the Meso American scientific community because they know it is a total hoax

Answer 7

It's not really that difficult.

DNA for example, is impossible to test when you have no clue what DNA you are looking for in the population. If you don't DNA to compare to then how on earth can you say its not there?

As for no cities found yet, Troy was lost for thousands of years, heck we are still learning about civilizations no one knew about from areas of the world that are very well searched and documented. And you expect to be able to find ancient cities from an area where all ancient documentation is gone and we have no clue where to start looking?

The more important question, with the growing knowledge of early Christianity and archaelogy and the more and more aspects of both that Joseph Smith nailed accurately, how on earth can you not think that His account deserves more attention?

The more we learn about Ancient pre columbian archaelogy, the more probable the Book of Mormon comes.

Joseph Smith just happened to get significant portions of Enoch and Abraham's story accurate that was lost to the Bible and not in any text known. Heck, the man detailed a conversation between Enoch and a man and recent text of Enoch have the same exact man in them!

How the heck did he know to include temple rites including salvation for the dead? or the degrees of heaven? Or the pre mortal existance? Or deification? All of which have been believed by the Early Church Fathers, from records unknown in Joseph's day.

How did he describe a route from Jerusalem to Nahom to Bountiful in first Nephi that mirrors an actual route from Jerusalem to Nahom, to a place that is exactly as Bountiful is described in Arabia when no maps of the place existed in Joseph's time?

How do you explain the miracles Joseph did in the name of Jesus Christ? He healed the sick with countless witnesses, heck he raised a man from the dead!

How do you account for the witnesses of the Book of Mormon who testified that they saw the plates and held to that testimony throughout their lives even till they died despite many of them being excommunicated and losing significant political and social acceptance because of it? How do you discount a number of those witnesses eventually repenting of their mistakes and returning to the Church despite the fact that they knew they wouldnt have anywhere near the power they had early on?

How do you explain the witnesses to the other visions recieved? There were atleast 20 witnesses to the visions of the three degrees of glory. The amazing thing about Joseph Smith isnt that he claimed visions and people believed him. Its that he claimed visions and had them witnessed with him by those he met.

How do you discount the testimony of the Holy Spirit which tells those who ask in faith that the Book of Mormon and Bible a true? It's such personal revelation that is most important because it brings true conversion.

You might not find the evidence all convincing, but with so many dead on hits you have to at least take the claim seriously and evaluate it, and most importantly try to find out for yourself through faith and prayer whether its true. There are just too many coincidences to just dismiss it outright. Especially for such weak arguments as you are presenting.

Answer 8

Given the "vast" knowledge which you have failed to reference....(why do you "I'll prove you wrong" guys never reference anything? No scientists, no universities, no nothin!) Sorry, what was the question? I got lost by the vast vagueness of your impirical lack of evidence.

EDIT:
I don't make it a point to disprove my own religion. Do YOU? Strange little man. Thanks for the list of scientific books. FINALLY (Take note, please TAN MAN) someone who has put his "money" where his mouth is. But looking at these books (and I have only had time to investigate a couple of the synopses...night is short), I don't think that I'd disagree with them. I believe in science. The thing about a "MIRACLE" is that it is something which we cannot explain.

So explain THIS...how did an under-educated farm hand from upstate New York who, as his mother described, was not "taken" with book-learning come up with a volume of this size in Middle English? Do you actually think he "plagarized" Isaiah? Do YOU understand Isaiah? How would an under-educated farm hand understand Isaiah enough to plagarize it?

As for the "home-schooling" crack...very cheap...but you are right...I have been spending the majority of my time teaching toddlers (which I'm sure your vast brain would consider enormously tedious) to be good people, to respect others, to love God, to cook, to play, to cuddle animals, to write their names, etc, and teaching myself to be a better photographer. While that might seem like a horrible waste of time to someone with your vast intellect and scientific mind, I'm just making the world a little prettier.

Thanks for the list. I'll take you up on it.

EDIT 2: Who is Jeff Lindsay? Like I said, my narrow little world is right now encompassed by Blue's Clues, Dr. Seuss and the makers of the Canon Rebel XTi.

Answer 9

When was any of this proven? Don't tell me you have invented a time machine and can now go back and in time and really prove these things. Sorry but none of those things you have talked about are fact either they are estimates and theorys.

Answer 10

Science can be wrong.

gw