Please explain this apperant paradox?

Question

Let me just start out by saying that I am an atheist, but I mean no disrespect. I really want to know what you think, so here goes...

Here are the two sides of the paradox:

1)God is all knowing and has determined everything from the beginning. He has made everything happen the way it does for the greater good. It is not for us to understand the plan.
This doesn't sit very well with me because any plan that involves genocide, natural disasters, and rapists seems like it comes from a pretty sick mind. Also, in that case, why fight abortion? Isn't that part of the plan, too? What's the point of praying if the outcome is preset?

2)Human beings have free will. Some of them are therefor influenced by Satan. God punishes sinners with earthly suffering and hell.
Aside from the fact that this is directly opposite, there are other logical errors: If Satan has any power then how can God be all powerful? Do Satan and evil men cause hurricanes? God allows evil free reign on Earth?

Chris C - I did not claim that I believe God is punishing me with suffering. This is something I have heard from religious people. Also, how can there be an absence of God if God is everywhere?

Ryan P - I have heard your analogy before, but if I were a parent, and I saw my child touching a hot stove and getting hurt. I would not allow them to keep doing so for the sake of "Free will". Also, presumably God created the "stove" as well. If he can do anything, why make it harmful? I have read More Than A Carpenter, but not CS Lewis, (Other than Narnia) thanks for the suggestion.

Nawatstruluv - So 6,000,000 Jews were killed by a madman to teach us a lesson? That's tough love? Again, it seems like a pretty sick plan. Also, What is the point of praying if God grants or does not grant our wishes based on what is good for us, as opposed to what we want?

Tim H - You really don't see the contradiction? God has power over everything/God doesn't control people. God has planned everything/you choose your own destiny.

Guv - That is an interesting point of view, and I agree that most of the suffering is caused by people. It still seems like a pretty lousy plan though, because it is NOT only the evil that get hurt. More often it is the innocent. How does it make us more godlike when good people suffer? Also, again, what is the point of praying if it all happens for a reason?

Thanks to all for the insight. It seems that Yahoo answerers tend to fall more on the "God is more all knowing, than all powerful" side of the issue. Thank you for your answers! It is amazing how much you can learn with a little respect.

Answer 1

It is probable that the way many of us talk about God is flawed. But that is a reflection of our own ignorance, rather than a reflection on God Himself.

We are still trying to better articulate our beliefs about God and the Bible, but we are a work in progress.

But that is not a phenomenon shared solely by the Christian community.

Think about the science community. How far have they come in the last 100 years? The last 20 years? What did they believe to be fact 100 years ago that no longer holds true?

But there is still a lot they don't know. And there are still very significant problems in that community. For instance, why the increase in the number of children with autism in recent years? Why the emergence of drug resistent "superbugs"?

We may indeed be wrong about the way we are talking about God, but we are right when we say that God is love.

I should have been more specific in my response. That was a response to your first answerer.

You equate knowledge with control (knowing = determining). Your premise is flawed.

I know that 2 + 2 = 4. But I didn't determine that. There are lots of things that I "know", but that does not mean that I determined them to be that way.

Further, the idea of knowledge in the Bible is very different than our idea of knowledge in the 21st century West. We see knowledge as a collection of facts.

The biblical view of knowledge has little to do with fact as we think of it. It has to do with relationship. Genesis says that "Adam knew Eve." That means that Adam shared an intimate relationship with Eve.

Even when we acknowledge that God is omniscient (all-knowing), it is because He is a relational God.

He knows you. He knows your name.

He loves you.

Answer 2

God is both All-Knowing and All-Powerful. God is much more than that: The All-Compassionate, The All-Merciful, The Hearer of All, The Seer of All, The Judge, The Patient One, The Everlasting One, The Forgiver, The Avenger, The Self-Existing One, just to name a few of God's attributes. God is beyond all human comprehension.

1) To say what God allows and doesn't allow is really beyond the human grasp. We can only make such statements from a human perspective and NEVER from God's perspective. It is human foolishness to even try to understand God or God's plan. The point of praying to God is not because God needs our prayers to validate God's existance, nor to necessarily change an outcome that is "preset". The purpose of humans praying to God is to bring about change in the human heart, acknowledging the Creator, accepting the will of the Creator no matter the outcome. This world is not perfect and thus the disasters and tragedies. Only Paradise is perfect.

2) Satan has been given a time by God to rule this earth not a "free reign", because God has chosen to test the human spirit. How do humans react or respond to evil? natural disaster? good fortune? This is where free will comes into play. If humans had no free will to choose the path they walk or if they allow Satan to influence them, then much would become meaningless when it comes to religious belief. God has given human kind the "rules" or consequences for their actions and choices. Some choose to disregard these rules, rationalizing that if they don't believe they don't have to worry about any perceived consequences set by God. That is their free will. Just remember that choosing NOT to believe does not make God go away and leave you alone.

Answer 3

OK. Well, for one thing all that happens- the sin/ and evil is aloud 'free reign' because of US. We cause the sin... we took the fruit... we hid the truth... (just so this is clear.... we couldn't hid ... but the point is we has humans able to see sin TRYED to hide) well anyway this is way Gods creation has sin and evil on it... and if there was no evil the what is the point in love? We wouldnt really know the difference now would we?
For Example-
Say theres a kid (they are ... 5 or 6 years old) they are with their parent at the store. Ok now this kid wants a candy. Why would the kid want a candy when they been told so many times that its bad for them? Because thats there simple minds... what feels or 'tastes' good now is all that is in there thoughts. ... this could also be used differently ... the kid wants a candy but the parent does'nt get the kid one... why is this? Because if you always get that kid what they want they wont apriseate anything... and would they know how to servie when they get older? Will they think about work? Will they go to college to get the education they need to make the money to provid themselfs with what they NEED? NO! They will think for the rest of their lives they get to just sit there and do nothing! Would that be a good parent? NO! That would be horrible! Its called tough love.... the kid might not understand why right now there mommy or daddy are being sooo ... mean as to make them wait till the next trip to the store for the candy but one day they will be sure gald that the parents did do that.
Any way I don't know if this made anything any clearer to you but I'll be praying that it did.

Answer 4

Thank you for respectfully stating the issue as you have. You bring up a number of points and I will attempt to address them singularly.

1) God is all powerful: To me this means He has the ultimate power, not the only power.
2) God's plan: The only plan God has for man is that we honor and worship Him above all.
3) Pre-set outcome: I believe that God can and does intervene, i.e., change things.
4) Natural disasters: It is only by virtue of the fact that the earth is so populated that these are even called disasters. Essentially, we have today the same basic weather system the earth has always had.
5) God punishes sinners: The Bible tells us that we are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. I have seen God fearing people suffer more than others who don't acknowledge God in their lives. I personally don't think they're being punished, except by their circumstances.

I once heard "sin" defined as; Man's perversion of God's creation. Abortion, rape, genocide, etc. are evidence of that perversion and they are not of God, but of man influenced by Satan.

You've probably heard the old saying, "A little religion is a dangerous thing." A lot of Christians are like voters who get their political news from late night comics and while I don't pretend to be a Bible scholar, I have studied God's word enough to know that man will never be able to understand the mystery of God. I should add that prior to my accepting Christ (and studying), I saw a similar paradox.

Answer 5

It is only a paradox if you believe that this life and this world are of importance.

Religion teaches us that what we do in this life and this world is more impiortant than either life or this world.

If a religious person therefore strives to do his best, under any circumstance and does not join in any of the evil around him then his reward is in fact to leave this life and its misery behind.

Also you have to consider that everyone has a different notion of what is fair, just and good. Is killing a murderer to prevent further murders fair, just and good? Do the Iraqi's believe that the intervention in their country is fair, just and good even if other countries believe so?

Religion should have basic tenets which are fair, just and good to the majority. So if I am taught not to steal, lie, kill, even if there is no God, if I live my life according to those rules then that is surely a good thing.

Is it fair and just to tell a six year old Santa does not exist?

Is it good to tell the family of a car accident victim that he died horribly rolling around on the ground screaming for death?

In both the above instances no faith at all is required, merely the application of truth.

Who said God made Earth for the greater good?
Who said God requires us to do anything for the greater good?

What is good?
What is evil?

Who's qualified to say?

If you deny the chef then why does dinner still arrive?

So
1) God is all powerful and everliving. The bible suggests that God is only all-knowing when he wants to be. He clearly arrived at the Garden of Eden and asked Adam what he had done. The question did not seem rhetorical. He then kicked us out of Eden and told us we'd be working hard and suffering through birth so he clearly does not mean our current situation to be perfectly comfortable and unchallenging. Genocide and rape are evil acts perfomed by evil people, not God. As far as the outcome being preset it seems only key objectives seem preset and these objectives have been announced already. That was the job of the prophets. In between its up to us. We hear that God has a plan for us. I have a loan repayment but the bank doesn't ring me up to tell me how to earn it.

2) Does Satan have any power? Not directly against God, he was cast out of heaven. Free will is what God gave us to exercise. If we exercise it for evil, it's up to us. If God say OK here's free will but you can exercise it only for good, it's not free will. Evil men do evil things and Satan apaprently has a big book of nifty things to suggest people do but it doesn't appear he causes hurricanes. A hurricane isn't evil though, is it? It's merely weather. Disaster, sure, but not evil. Not good either, it is just what it is - wind.

One thing is for sure, if God is infinite and my brain and yours can be held in the palm of a hand, how on earth can our tiny brains comprehend the machinations of infinity?

Answer 6

I shall assume by God you mean the big Fella (The God of Abrahamic religions.) Not all gods profess to be omnipotent and or omniscient.

It is fairly clear from (OT) scripture that God does allow free will - for the most part. This is dramatically implied when for instance he removes Pharaoh’s free will (hardens his heart to the pleas) and so visits the ten plagues of Egypt. Similarly many of the prophets are compelled or commanded to act and so effectively have no free will.

There is a difference between knowing what decision a human will make (omniscient) and that destiny being predetermined. We have the freedom to make any choice we choose, but a being that knows everything will know what we will choose.

God does not claim to have determined everything from the beginning. He does claim to know everything that will come to pass and be eternal.
Only specific prophecies can be considered pre-determined and most of these require conditions that are controlled by human free will.
Most references to a plan of God are specific and temporal (usually war!) Other than that - there is no plan. Good, bad or indifferent - there is no great pre-determined plan for the individual, only guidance.

By contrast big Nick has plans and schemes galore (but I’ve said too much).

If your question boils down to why does (a good) God let bad things happen? Well that’s another story………….



FYI - I’m an atheist (but I say that mainly to annoy the Gods!)

Answer 7

It's the concept of what God is that may be wrong.
He doesn't have to be an entity as we know it.He /It could be a sort of abstract summation of all awareness.
If It/He was in fact a creator then why can't we also perceive that the creation is 'ongoing'. At what stage is anybody's guess, it may still be in the experimental mode.We could be pre-prototype, thus all the apparent contradictions. The model is not yet confirmed. Mistakes are still in progress. We can see from evolution that often there are many redundant avenues.
We are still on/outside the verge of understanding laws of physics, it may be that matter and mind are more inter-dependent upon each other than we can presently conceive. We and all else may in fact be of one substance/energy/time, our inherent but vague awareness of this may cause us to extrapolate the idea of a separate cause and we call it God.
One really has to be an agnostic to appreciate that until we know something we have no grounds to assume anything.

Answer 8

It may make more sense when you first understand that some scriptures have not presented these issues in the right perspective.
Yes, God is all-knowing and all-powerful, but then so are you as a child of God. However, it will not help anyone if we remain childlike. That is why God sent us 'down' here to have all sorts of experiences that will teach us and make us realize our in-born abilities. The lower worlds were deliberately designed for 'hardship', for alas, we do not learn when things are rosy. It matters little how we go at each other like cat and dog using our free will because the spiritual laws (of cause and effect, and reincarnation) ultimately ensure that we learn. Then, and only then, do we find our way back to God.

Answer 9

Okay here goes... a parent does not will that there children touch a hot stove in fact they want them not to, but children have a free will and do it anyway. the parent is not the cause of the pain the childs disobedience is. God wills that we be obedient but were not, He gives us a free will so that we will CHOOSE to love Him and not just be forced to because that would not be love, so He allows bad things to happen He does not cause them, He knows what will happen but He is not responcible if He gives you the choice it is now Your responcibility. that is irrefutable logic and if you cannot see that then feel free to contact me and we can talk more.. you should read mere christianity by CS Lewis, he was an atheist and a professor at oxford he set out to disprove Christianity and ended up proving it, Josh macdowell has the same sort of story his book is entitled beyond belief to conviction, or more than a carpenter... read them if you are searching for the truth...

Answer 10

I agree to the contradicting claims you had presented, this is so because those claims about God are based on scriptures prepared by men, and we know man do ERR, I also presume that you do question the authenticity of the bible- Me, personally I do not take said Bible as most Holy as it claims it to be. So, the bottomline, do we believe what is in the Christian Bible, if we do not , then perhaps seeking and asking more parodoxes is but academic. Atheist you are, is what you call youself madam, I too cannot believe and swallow the said God being offered in the Bible, but I am not losing hope as I grow old and eventually ( I wish not too soon) will face our own ultimate death, and yet and still searching mans purpose of creation for if in vain, Will I meet my Ceator in the next after life- if ever there is...