Jehovah's Witnesses, regarding John 14:16 and the Holy Spirit...?

Question

When referring to the coming of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever".

The Greek term translated "another" is "allos".

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says the following -

Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes "another of the same sort;" HETEROS expresses a QUALITATIVE difference and denotes "another of a different sort." (caps for emphasis)

Therefore, if the Lord Jesus employed "allos" to refer to the Holy Spirit as a Comforter who was "another of the same sort", i.e. the same as Him, then how can the Holy Spirit be an impersonal, "active force" such as electricity, as the Watchtower teach ? That would make the Lord Jesus an impersonal, "active force", also.

Comments, please ?

Please consider the following -

According to my source, the Greek "parakletos" is used only 5 times in the NT.

In John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26 & 16:7; the context makes it VERY clear that Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit.

The other occasion when "parakletos" is used is in 1 John 2:1.

Who is the term used to refer to ?

The Lord Jesus.

"My little children, these things I write to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous" 1 John 2:1 (insert mine).

Allos - "another of the same kind."

Jesus is not an impersonal, "active force" and neither is the Holy Spirit.

Who set the apostle Paul apart for the work of preaching the gospel ?

Acts 9:15 - "But the Lord said to (Ananias), Go, for this man is a chosen vessel TO ME, to bear My name before both the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel" (insert mine, caps for emphasis).

Acts 13:2 - "And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, THE HOLY SPIRIT SAID, Set apart FOR ME now Barnabas AND SAUL for the work to which - mark this - I have called them." (insert mine, caps for emphasis).

Ephesians 4:30 -

Mentioned here and been referred to MANY times before - CLEAR evidence that the so-called "active force" is actually a PERSON. Please note - my bedroom light is, to my knowledge, not the least bit offended when I switch it off at night. Why not ? Because it's only electricity, an impersonal, "active force".

Ephesians 4:30 says that the Holy Spirit can experience EMOTION (grief). Why is your mind not open to this, Jacquie ?

Even the New World Translation refers to the Holy Spirit as "THAT ONE" in John 14:26. Is that language which points to an impersonal, "active force" ? I don't think so.

Dunc -

The personification argument is weak, to say the least. The language of John 14:16 - particularly the use of "allos" by the Lord in reference to the Spirit - clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON. Interestingly, you appear to have side-stepped the point I made concerning the use of "allos" completely...

Also, in the process of highlighting Wisdom as being personified in Proverbs, you actually weaken the WT argument that Proverbs 8:22 refers to the pre-exisitent Lord Jesus. How can Proverbs 8 pertain to a thing personified and an actual person simultaneously ? There seems to be a contradiction here. You actually say that "it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something THAT IS NOT A PERSON to be personalized or personified." So, how can Proverbs 8:22 refer to Jesus ?
In addition, regarding Wisdom, you state that "feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew". Would that be appropriate if the writer was speaking of the Lord ?

A. Heiss -

You wrote, "this passage compares the holy spirit with the bible".

Really ?

2 Timothy 3:16 lists the various functions of scripture, "..for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Where does it list INTERCESSION as a function of scripture ?

Thayer's Lexicon says of "parakletos" -

"one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor". Obvoiusly a PERSON.

How many times is "parakletos" used in the Greek NT ?

Who is the term used in reference to ? (clue - see above)

Is there anywhere in the NT that says the bible intercedes for us and pleads our cause ?

Is there any instance in the NT where "parakletos" is used in reference to the scripture or another impersonal object (apart from your argument re the Holy Spirit) ?

I notice that you also have avoided directly addressing the use of "allos" in John 14:16...

Why ?

Keichi -

I notice that you also have avoided the point which I made regarding the Lord Jesus' use of "allos" rather than "heteros" in reference to the Holy Spirit.

TeeM -

Actually, my question made no reference to the use of personal pronouns in regard to the Spirit.

My question was regarding the Lord Jesus' use of "allos" rather than "heteros" regarding the Holy Spirit, and it appears that you - like many other JW's here - have not directly addressed the question. Why not ?

John 14:16 and the use of "parakletos" could not apply to prayer, Terry, because a parclete is an INTERCESSOR, whereas prayer is A MEANS OF INTERCESSION.

Impersonal, "active forces" such as electricity CANNOT intercede on behalf of others. It's very plain, Terry.

May God be gracious to you.

TeeM -

Do rivers, stars, stones and animals intercede on behalf of God's people ?

Are rivers, stars, stones and animals "another of the same kind" as the Lord Jesus ?

Come on, Terry. Who's blinded here ?

Answer 1

Thank you Betty A for a very good answer.

I would like to add that in Acts 5 Peter expressly refers to the Holy Spirit as God.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart TO LIE TO THE HOLY GHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? THOU HAST NOT LIED UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.


As if God's Spirit could be anything other than God!



Sadly the Jehovah’s Witnesses follow the Watchtower Organisation and not Jesus Christ. The Watchtower Organisation fails the Biblical test for a true prophet of God in that it has made several prophecies of the date of the end of the world which have come and gone and are therefore manifestly not true.

Thus according to the Bible we may safely reject it as a false prophet and need not fear it.

Answer 2

There are many misconceptions on the identity of the Holy Spirit. Some view the Holy Spirit as a mystical force. Others understand the Holy Spirit as the impersonal power God makes available to followers of Christ. What does the Bible say about the identity of the Holy Spirit? Simply put - the Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also tells us that the Holy Spirit is a Person, a Being with a mind, emotions, and a will. The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly seen in many Scriptures including Acts 5:3-4. In this verse Peter confronts Ananias as to why he had lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had “not lied to men but to God.” It is a clear declaration that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. We can also know that the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the attributes or characteristics of God. For example, the fact that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent is seen in Psalm 139:7-8, “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.” Then in 1 Corinthians 2:10, we see the characteristic of omniscience in the Holy Spirit. “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” We can know that the Holy Spirit is indeed a Person because He possesses a mind, emotions, and a will. The Holy Spirit thinks and knows (1 Corinthians 2:10). The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30). The Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). The Holy Spirit makes decisions according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is God, the third “Person” of the Trinity. As God, the Holy Spirit can truly function as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised He would be (John 14:16,26; 15:26).

Answer 3

how can the Holy Spirit be an impersonal, "active force" such as electricity, as the Watchtower teach ?

Ru′ach and pneu′ma, therefore, when used with reference to God’s holy spirit, refer to God’s invisible active force by which he accomplishes his divine purpose and will. It is “holy” because it is from Him, not of an earthly source, and is free from all corruption as “the spirit of holiness.” (Ro 1:4)

It is not Jehovah’s “power,” for this English word more correctly translates other terms in the original languages (Heb., ko′ach; Gr., dy′na‧mis). Ru′ach and pneu′ma are used in close association or even in parallel with these terms signifying “power,” which shows that there is an inherent connection between them and yet a definite distinction. (Mic 3:8; Zec 4:6; Lu 1:17, 35; Ac 10:38)

“Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something.

“Force,” on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exerted on persons or things, and may be defined as “an influence that produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion.”

“Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery. “Force,” then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures.

Answer 4

Personification does not prove personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper” and spoke of such helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving.’ In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the personal pronoun “he” to that “helper” (paraclete). (Compare Joh 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15.) However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT) Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.” The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.

So, likewise with John’s account of Jesus’ words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive pa‧ra′kle‧tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns. On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneu′ma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneu′ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa‧ra′kle‧tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.

Lacks personal identification. Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’ It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit. But, on the contrary, in a large number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.—Compare Ac 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52; 19:2; Ro 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16, 19; 1Co 12:3; Heb 2:4; 6:4; 2Pe 1:21; Jude 20, Int and other interlinear translations.

Answer 5

Carl,
I cannot elaborate on what dunc has said. His explanation is excellent. I agree with him fully.

He has given you many many scriptures that give an accurate explanation of why we know the holy spirit is God's active force compared to the one you cited.

Will you check them up in your own bible?
With an open mind?

~~~~
Edit
You refer to Ephesians 4:30,

Since the holy spirit is closely associated with its Source (God) someone who goes contrary to God’s will ‘grieves his spirit.’ (Eph. 4:30)
The apostle Paul’s words about his own spirit or dominant attitude illustrate that this is not a person.
At 1 Corinthians 5:3-5 we read: “I for one, although absent in body but present in spirit, have certainly judged already, as if I were present, the man who has worked in such a way as this, that in the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are gathered together, also my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus, you hand such a man over to Satan.”

In this case, through Paul’s letter, the Corinthian Christians knew Paul’s spirit or attitude regarding the allowance of corrupting influence in the congregation. So when they met to consider this matter, Paul’s spirit or forceful attitude was right there, as if a person. Once a decision was made that agreed with the spirit Paul showed, Christians at Corinth could in effect say, ‘We ourselves and Paul’s spirit have decided to expel the unrepentant man.’ On the other hand, had they gone contrary to the right spirit that the apostle manifested, they would have ‘grieved’ it.

Carl,
A person who really wants to know the truth of God's word would examine all things in order to find it.
Why don't you do independent research into the origins of the Trinity (and I don't mean looking through our "Should you believe the Trinity?" brochure with the sole purpose of picking fault with it) but I mean independent research from other sources. Don't take our word for it (I know you don't)

Look into it and find out for yourself.
Are you afraid of what you may find?

:)

Answer 6

Bunkum & humbug. Who decided all this should be written in the Bible in the first place. Where did all these writings come from and who compiled them. Why were some other Christian texts not only rejected but surpressed by the church?

The Roman Catholics who created the Bible did a good job of sealing your fate by completely tying you up in the whole religion thing. So much confusion and so many different ways of interpretating 'God's word'. Tosh.

This is a religion of convenience which followers will do anything to justify but then by the same token hate and kill other people in the name of the Lord. Those people may even be believers but that makes no difference.

Where's the real Love? The religion tells one to reject the senses but how else do we perceive creation?

Times have move on since 'Jesus' and we understand the world much better now than even he could in his time. He was a great man, very great but a man nevertheless.

Don't waste your life waiting for pie in the sky. Love your self and others and try to do the best you can for you and society.

Stop the fighting. God is Everything so love life and nature. There will be the haters who will damn but it makes no difference because Heaven & Hell are within and the choice to experience either is down to the individual. Make positive use of your time instead of the dividing.

Don't be brainwashed.

More Peace

Answer 7

This is an extraordinarily weak argument for trinitarianism, and helps demonstrate just how utterly bereft of actual Scriptural support their philosophy actually is.

Does John 14:16 actually compare holy spirit with Jesus, and remark that these two are "of the same sort"?

No, this passage compares the holy spirit with the bible. Both are powerful tools, and represent the two mechanisms by which God and Christ would inform and influence the Christian Congregation. Note what the passage actually says:

(John 14:15-17) You [Christians] will observe my commandments [as recorded in the bible, which will be divinely protected throughout the millenia]; and I will request the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm?article=article_07.htm

Answer 8

You are so right! Jesus taught the concept of the Trinity when he said:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. JOHN 14:16-20

Jesus said He would pray the Father would send another Comforter.

Jesus said the Spirit is in you.

Jesus said I (Jesus) will come to you.

Jesus said He is in the Father.

Jesus said you are in Jesus.

Jesus said that He (Jesus) is in you.

Therefore, we are in the Father, we are in the Son. The Son is in us, the Father is in us, the Holy Spirit is in us.

Regarding the Holy Spirit as an active force.... consider the command to baptize at Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Honestly, if the Holy Ghost = active force, than this would be true... name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the active force. Does that even make sense? If it is purely the Father's trait, why is the the SON separating the two?

Surely, the three are distinct, yet of the same likeness.

THE TRINITY IS REAL

Isaiah said he saw the Father in Isaiah 6:1-10, and in John 12:35-45 John specifically says outright that Isaiah saw Jesus in all his glory. Jesus HIMSELF points out that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. And Acts 28:23-27 says the Holy Ghost said the words! How much more proof is necessary that Jesus is Jehovah is the Holy Spirit???

Compare:

Isaiah 6:1-10
John 12:35-45
Acts 28:23-27
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To ACHTUNG... YES it compares the Holy Spirit to JESUS.

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Do you really believe the HS was compared to the BIBLE??? Keep reading please.

Although, I must point out to you that
the Bible = the Word = Jesus, so you are almost right. Almost. :o)
__________________________
EDIT: to dunc and anyone that agrees with him

The Holy Spirit IS Wisdom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exodus 28:3

Exodus 31:3

Exodus 35:31

Deuteronomy 34:9

Isaiah 11:2

Luke 2:40

Acts 6:10

1 Corinthians 2:4

1 Corinthians 2:13

Ephesians 1:17

Colossians 1:9

Colossians 3:16

__________________

OH and the Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ:

Romans 8:9
1 Peter 1:11
__________________
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Answer 9

it may refer to another name for Faith.
how many times has faith comforted you & got you thru times when nothing else worked?
& all because belief is such a powerful thing.

Jesus' is referring to a belief that has withstood the test of time.
& that faith or belief is what i think Jesus was referring to,
not a literal spirit but your own belief in God.
i don't believe in the trinity, that was invented by mankind & added to the text.
but then again they've added & taken away various things as & when it suited.
the pope recently denounced Limbo, it does not exist but it made many a pretty penny for priests in charges,

so you'll have to look further to find other instancies of revenue making religious practices.

Answer 10

John14:16 refers to the Holy Spirit as He (that He may be with you forever) The Holy Spirit isn't an it , He is an actual spiritual being.

Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes "another of the same sort . According to the Bible, God; Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one = the Trinity; the Godhead three.

I recommend that you read John and listen to what Jesus says about Himself. Also Matthew. Jesus says who he is.