'Has the second law of thermodynamics been circumvented?

Question

2nd law of thermodynamics: Physicist Lord Kelvin stated it technically as follows:

"There is no natural process the only result of which is to cool a heat reservoir and do external work." In more understandable terms, this law observes the fact that the useable energy in the universe is becoming less and less. Ultimately there would be no available energy left. Stemming from this fact we find that the most probable state for any natural system is one of disorder. All natural systems degenerate when left to themselves. it is well known that, left to themselves, chemical compounds ultimately break apart into simpler materials; they do not ultimately become more complex. Outside forces can increase order for a time (through the expenditure of relatively large amounts of energy, and through the input of design). However, such reversal cannot last forever. Once the force is released, processes return to their natural direction - greater disorder. Their energy is transformed into lower levels of availability for further work. The natural tendency of complex, ordered arrangements and systems is to become simpler and more disorderly with time. Thus, in the long term, there is an overall downward trend throughout the universe. Ultimately, when all the energy of the cosmos has been degraded, all molecules will move randomly, and the entire universe will be cold and without order. To put it simply: In the real world, the long-term overall flow is downhill, not uphill. All experimental and physical observation appears to confirm that the Law is indeed universal, affecting all natural processes in the long run. Naturalistic Evolutionism requires that physical laws and atoms organize themselves into increasingly complex and beneficial, ordered arrangements. Thus, over eons of time, billions of things are supposed to have developed upward, becoming more orderly and complex. However, this basic law of science (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) reveals the exact opposite. In the long run, complex, ordered arrangements actually tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time. There is an irreversible downward trend ultimately at work throughout the universe. Evolution, with its ever increasing order and complexity, appears impossible in the natural world.

look ma ants on my stick

The quote already has the source listed. I never claimed to write it.

Answer 1

You are an idiot and deserve no answer.

Answer 2

Life clearly degenerates, plants and people die and turn into dust. There are however events that cause complexity to exist as you noted above. The existence of life is likely a result of such an event. Living organisms clearly attempt to better themselves by feeding and procreating, but ultimately end up as dirt, which follows the second law of thermodynamics precisely.

Evolution contends that living organisms, mutate, which is an unrefuteable fact. Most of these mutations fail and cause the organism to die and decompose quicker, some however end up being beneficial for the organism. This is clear in mutating viruses that become immune to antibiotics. Over time these mutations completely change organisms and allow them to specialize in differing environments. (Ever wonder why God didn't put Kangaroos in Alaska) Procreation and mutations and time, allow for different types of creatures, some more complex, some less. Evolution doesn't have a goal of creating complex beings, it just allows life to change to suite environments. There are many single celled organisms that are in existence that aren't complex at all.

The end result of all lifeforms is a chemical decomposition that follows the second law of thermodynamics directly. Attempting to apply this law to evolution is dishonest.


Oh and doesn't the existence of God, clearly a complex being break your misinterpreted 2nd law. So if you are correct, then God cannot exist either.

Answer 3

No, I do not think so.

"The Second Law of Thermodynamics is commonly known as the Law of Increased Entropy. While quantity remains the same (First Law), the quality of matter/energy deteriorates gradually over time. How so? Usable energy is inevitably used for productivity, growth and repair. In the process, usable energy is converted into unusable energy. Thus, usable energy is irretrievably lost in the form of unusable energy.

"Entropy" is defined as a measure of unusable energy within a closed or isolated system (the universe for example). As usable energy decreases and unusable energy increases, "entropy" increases. Entropy is also a gauge of randomness or chaos within a closed system. As usable energy is irretrievably lost, disorganization, randomness and chaos increase."

Now as we know the Earth is not a closed system as it receives a constant flow of energy from the Sun.

We also know that the Sun is burning its fuel and will eventually collapse and "burn itself out" as it loses heat and energy which is "bled" into space and the planets.

So while on a universal scale yes the Law is true and following its course, the Earth is not a closed system at this time and as such not truly bound by the 2nd Law as it receives energy from an outside source.

Answer 4

Our great biological order comes at the expense of energy. Right now we depend on the sun for a constant source of energy. The sun will not last forever. Our great order is an anomaly in a specific area and will disperse again eventually.

Overall the total system becomes less organized, however pockets of increasing order may exist.

Answer 5

No, you actually don't understand the 2nd law. It deals with entropy not order. Entropy is the amount of energy available to do work. That's all. It has nothing to do with the order of atoms or the universe.

Also, you don't understand that the Earth is an open system and we are constantly being supplied with energy from the sun. When the sun dies, life will cease to exist, staying in line with the law since we will have reached maximum entropy of our solar system.

Answer 6

A typical human-centric, flawed view of the universe. The earth is not a closed system; it is part of the universe. Do the math; evolution on earth, if you want to call it an increase in order, is a rounding error, an infinitesimally small impact in the universe as a whole. One exploding star (of billions) offsets any gain in change in entropy the earth could possibly make.

Answer 7

Another nice bit of plagiarism. Why do Christians not give the source of their cut-n-paste efforts? Does it make their lies more real to them?



Meanwhile:

No.

The Earth is not a closed system.

Go outside on a nice day. Using a large magnifying glass focus the image of the sun onto the palm of your hand.





Where on Earth did that energy come from?

Answer 8

Eldad9 is my hero. How about trying to crack open a science book and learn something before you ask such a flawed question? The second law of thermodynamics has not been circumvented, considering the laws of thermodynamics apply to closed systems. The earth is not a closed system (see eldad9's answer and references). This is 6th grade science.

Answer 9

If the 2nd law worked that way, how could anyone build a building? Even clean their houses? Don't you think that would have occurred to someone?

If you put energy into a system, you can decrease the entropy. It takes energy to build a house or clean a room. And the Earth requires the constant input of energy from the Sun.

Answer 10

I don't agree with your interpretation. Especially because you seem to be forgetting the law of conservation of mass. Energy and Matter can shift positions, and the general trend you speak of is purely speculation on your part.

Answer 11

Posting a science question in the religion and spirituality section often means the asker does not really want an answer. His goal is to ask a question that he believes proves some scientific knowledge to be wrong, or that science does not yet answer, and make the implicit claim that the only other explanation is a god, and specifically, the same god he happens to believe in.

It's the "god of the gaps" - intellectually bankrupt, since it favors ignorance instead of knowledge, and because of the contained logical fallacy.

However, on the off chance that you really want to know the answer:


Claim CF001:
The second law of thermodynamics says that everything tends toward disorder, making evolutionary development impossible.
Source:
Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, pp. 38-46.
Response:

1. The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing. It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease. This does not prevent increasing order because

* the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.
* entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. (Aranda-Espinoza et al. 1999; Kestenbaum 1998) Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size (Han and Craighead 2000).
* even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system.
In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.

2. The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. All of these are seen to happen all the time, so, obviously, no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution (Demetrius 2000).

Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy (McShea 1998). Some see the information content of organisms subject to diversification according to the second law (Brooks and Wiley 1988), so organisms diversify to fill empty niches much as a gas expands to fill an empty container. Others propose that highly ordered complex systems emerge and evolve to dissipate energy (and increase overall entropy) more efficiently (Schneider and Kay 1994).

3. Creationists themselves admit that increasing order is possible. They introduce fictional exceptions to the law to account for it.

4. Creationists themselves make claims that directly contradict their claims about the second law of thermodynamics, such as hydrological sorting of fossils during the Flood.

References:

1. Aranda-Espinoza, H., Y. Chen, N. Dan, T. C. Lubensky, P. Nelson, L. Ramos and D. A. Weitz, 1999. Electrostatic repulsion of positively charged vesicles and negatively charged objects. Science 285: 394-397.
2. Brooks, D. R. and E. O. Wiley, 1988. Evolution As Entropy, University of Chicago Press.
3. Kestenbaum, David, 1998. Gentle force of entropy bridges disciplines. Science 279: 1849.
4. Han, J. and H. G. Craighead, 2000. Separation of long DNA molecules in a microfabricated entropic trap array. Science 288: 1026-1029.
5. Demetrius, Lloyd, 2000. Theromodynamics and evolution. Journal of Theoretical Biology 206(1): 1-16. http://www.idealibrary.com/links/doi/10.1006/jtbi.2000.2106
6. McShea, Daniel W., 1998. Possible largest-scale trends in organismal evolution: eight live hypotheses. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 29: 293-318.
7. Schneider, Eric D. and James J. Kay, 1994. Life as a manifestation of the second law of thermodynamics. Mathematical and Computer Modelling 19(6-8): 25-48. http://www.fes.uwaterloo.ca/u/jjkay/pubs/Life_as/lifeas.pdf

Further Reading:
Atkins, P. W. 1984. The Second Law. New York: Scientific American Books.

Kauffman, Stuart A. 1993. The Origins of Order. New York: Oxford. (technical)

Lambert, Frank L. 1999. The second law of thermodynamics. http://www.secondlaw.com
See for Yourself:
You can see order come and go in nature in many different ways. A few examples are snowflakes and other frost crystals, cloud formations, dust devils, ripples in sand dunes, and eddies and whirlpools in streams. See how many other examples you can find.