How does one respond to this?

Question

I frequently discuss theology with my peers, and occasionally with my superiors (e.g., theology teachers) in a friendly and largely informal way. I am an atheist, and they, for the most part, are Roman Catholic.

One thing that almost always comes up is the question of my belief system... I am not widely known as an atheist. Upon finding out that I'm an atheist, people (understandably) ask me to back up/give reasons for my beliefs, much as I would ask them to explain their reasons for believing.

The issue arises when I cite logical reasons, and assert that it is not rational to believe in god. Ninety-five percent of the time, the person with whom I am speaking says something to the effect of "You can't prove god with logic, he's totally illogical. You have to have faith."

I do not know how to respond to this... politely, at least. If faith is the only way one can come to know god, that is begging the question of god. And why should someone believe in something that cannot be

proven, and to boot seems almost entirely filled with logical fallicies?

So how do I respond in a polite manner that will convey to them my tenet, which is that dis/belief should be founded in logic?

fanofthe... -- I am glad that you are no longer depressed, but a wholly subjective event experienced within a state of temporary mental illness is no logical reason to believe in something otherwise unprovable. If you choose to believe, that's fine and I respect it, but it's hardly an argument to make another believe. Also, the holy spirit statement begs the question of god. I've sincerely and whole-heartedly called out to god many a time and it's not there. I really want the truth, it's just that that truth is atheism.

michael -- the design/designer idea comes up often, but the problem with that is that it presumes the universe must be a design, and that cannot be proven. In fact, the universe is incredibly random, especially on the subatomic level, and chance has a lot to do with the rest of it. The chances are infinitesimally small, but that alone does not prove god.

essex_reject -- Faith is indeed illogical. But if god/faith are purely emotional and thus have no need for proo

how are the claims of action (ie, creation, crucifixion) upheld? Pure emotions cannot have a physical presence.

Answer 1

I would ask which believe they want me to substantiate. If they ask about your belief that God doesn't exist, then give them evidence for God being man-made. You can point to the history of each religion for this. You can also show human tendency for creating and buying into superstition.

If they say that they believe God exists because of their faith and not logic, I would ask them how that works. Usually, they would either refer to the Bible, express some feelings they have, or some "miracle" in their life that they attribute to God. Of course, you then say, "So, it is not really faith. You have what you consider evidence for God's existence." If they say no, then discount anything they say about their experiences. If they say yes, then tell them that the evidence that convinces them doesn't convince you, and tell them why.

People throw the word "faith" around, but they really don't use it. It's just a bandaid for what they can't adequately explain. You'll find that the most devout faith-based believers, still use logic and reason for the rest of their decisions. For everything else, they demand some logic about what they do. They just reserve "faith" for religion. That's called "special pleading". They are basically saying that faith doesn't work with anything else besides god.

And don't let them then confuse a working assumption with a leap of faith. They will say that everybody has faith because you can't prove, for example, that the sun will rise tomorrow. Actually, there is good evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow. There are some assumptions we make about the world, which may be later proven wrong. However, that's different than believing something just because you want to believe it.

Answer 2

Sounds as if your peers are, on the one hand, asking you for evidence, even as they themselves retreat to fideism, which treats the existence of God as axiomatic, so that any discussion or argument functions to reveal an axiom, rather than to test the hypothesis itself.

You both are coming down to a faith system, albeit of different faiths. Your friends assume God exists and so wish you to defend your lack of faith; you do not assume that God exists and so wish them to defend their faith through reason -- a system which they do not in fact consider sufficient or even applicable.

While fideism has been opposed in the Catholic church even so recently as John Paul II, the fact is that many -- both within Christianity and without -- find fideism a comfort and a relief in a world growing ever more demanding of their time and critical attention. As to what you should say to them, be kind when you can as you point out that the bottom line is faith -- that the existence of God cannot be proven without recourse to faith, even as the argument to evidence can ultimately say only that there is no evidence that a Deity is present or even necessary for the present state of the universe.

It's not a comfortable answer, but it's an honest one.

Peace.

Answer 3

My response would be I accept nothing on faith, that my beliefs are based on provable, scientific fact. Since they cannot prove their gods exist, and we cannot prove nonexistence, it starts begging the question. Faith is not fact. Faith is the ability to believe in something which you know, intellectually, can't possibly be true. It just happens that concept grinds a bit too much on some of us, because we need realities.

Answer 4

Ask them to define faith. Usually at this point they will begin talking in circles saying it is a belief of the unseen. So in order to believe one most believe in the unseen...ask how they have faith.
After they ramble on for 15 minutes attempting to define faith without the word belief ( or a synonym of it) simply explain to them that you dont have faith. Its as simple as that, you just dont have it.
Long story short they will keep going and going until at some point you have to cut them off nicely by saying "I respect your opinions and would appreciate it you did the same"

Answer 5

good day there Isadora, Rana has already informed me what occurred and which you the two agreed to call a truce, which i'm quite chuffed. She is a superb pal and that i hated to ascertain her or all human beings else harm. despite if the 2nd area of twelve months q, i went decrease back and reread each and all the solutions two times and that i'm able to't see all human beings calling u any such undesirable call. Pls Isadora, do no longer p.c.. yet another combat enable us to have some peace for the period of this area returned. BTW it takes great capability to assert twelve months sorry and that i particularly appreciate this from you. edit: Isadora, i under no circumstances accused you of something, and that i do no longer think of all human beings who reads what u merely wrote wud the two, u have cleared each and everything up and had the coronary heart to assert what u did and did no longer do. it is merely that I honestly have replied u in rana's q earlier that u would desire to take issues with slightly greater leniency for twelve months sake earlier all human beings else. I under no circumstances meant to make you unhappy the two that became no longer my objective so, merely cheer up.

Answer 6

Faith is the irrattional belief in something that is other wise illogical. Find a way to work that into the fact you choose not to be illogical and therefore do not believe in G-d. That is what I do any ways.

Answer 7

I generally respond that that's my point. Since I have no faith, and have yet to find the store that sells it, I do not believe in god. At some point, if I acquire faith, my position may change.

Answer 8

Just for today I will try to live through this day
only, and not tackle my whole life problem at
once. I can do something for twelve hours that
would appal me if I felt that I had to keep it up
for a lifetime.
Just for today I will be happy. Most folks are
as happy as they make up their minds to be.
Just for today I will adjust myself to what is,
and not try to adjust everything to my own
desires. I will take my ‘luck’ as it comes, and
fit myself to it.
Just for today I will try to strengthen my mind.
I will study. I will learn something useful. I will
not be a mental loafer. I will read something
that requires effort, thought and concentration.
Just for today I will exercise my soul in three
ways: I will do somebody a good turn, and not
get found out; if anybody knows of it, it will not
count. I will do at least two things I don’t want
to do just for exercise. I will not show
anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be
hurt, but today I will not show it.
Just for today I will be agreeable. I will look as
well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act
courteously, criticise not one bit, not find fault
with anything and not try to improve or
regulate anybody except myself.
Just for today I will have a programme. I may
not follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will
save myself from two pests: hurry and
indecision.
Just for today I will have a quiet half hour all
by myself, and relax. During this half hour,
sometime, I will try to get a better perspective
of my life.
Just for today I will be unafraid. Especially I
will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful,
and to believe that as I give to the world, so the
world will give to me.

Answer 9

haven't you figured out yet that religion is a form of brainwashing and that like hypnosis, some people, like you for instance, are immune to the spell or that it can be broken by reason and logic in much the same way that an 'intervention' is done by those concerned with returning members of cults to sanity. in other words, religious indoctrination is very difficult to inflict reason upon because it has been IMPLANTED into the brain by priests, rabbis, imams, etc, and 'faith' is a concept invented by religion to be IMMUNE to reason...pretty slick huh?...

Answer 10

If you cannot prove god with logic because he's totally illogical, the surley faith is illogical.

God/Faith are emotions...feelings. Can these be proved with logic?