Jehovah's Witnesses? Who is our creator God or Jesus?

Question

NWT

***GENESIS 1

1 In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

***COLOSSIANS 1 (which we know is about JESUS)

16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

***ISAIAH 44

24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
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So, since Jehovah can't lie, and He says He created everything BY HIMSELF, and Colossians says that JESUS created everything, that without Him, nothing would be made.... doesn't that make Jesus our God?

Proverbs 8 is about the HOLY SPIRIT whom is wisdom.

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***** TO PAPA BEAR --

1) I am not attacking anyone. I am not being mean. I am trying to understand the JW comprehension of the Bible. I, as a trinitarian need to know this in order to comprehend a separation of God and Jesus.

2) I believe I have what is right. If JWs really believe they have what is right, they should be more than happy to show me what these verses mean to them. I am pleased to do the same. I do not believe Proverbs 8 is in regard to Jesus. It is about the HS whom is wisdom. See Isaiah 11:2.

to be continued below:

Cont... TO PAPA BEAR --

3) You are NOT a JW. You have been disfellowshipped for over 20 yrs!! Surely, if you thought this was the truth, you would repent and go back. The Watchtower cannot tell you that you cannot come back if you repent - no matter WHAT you did. That would be assuming the role of Jesus, and that is very very wrong. Don't forget, Jesus AND Jehovah love you, no matter what you did. Just ask for His forgiveness. Ask Jesus to come into your heart. Accept that he died for YOUR sins so that you don't have to. Not ONE person on this earth is worthy of eternal life without the blood of Jesus. But through accepting this gift, we are saved. Once, saved, you will want to do works through the HS's convictions. It is very clear that you are trying to do works for Jehovah to make up for whatever you have done. You cannot get to the Father without the Son, sweetie. You need Jesus. I will pray for you.

BACK to the Question....

Jehovah said He created BY HIMSELF...NO ONE WAS WITH HIM.

It does not say that He created it by Himself with the help of others. It specifically says He is the ONE creator.

How can Jesus be the one through whom all things are made, if Jehovah is the ONE creator? Unless.... they are the same?

For the FIRSTBORN issue, please read this article:

The key word in Colossians 1:15 is the word "firstborn" which is the Greek word PROTOTOKOS. This word is only found seven times in the New Testament and is "...rare outside the Bible and does not occur prior to the LXX," (LXX refers to the Septuagent a Greek translation of the Old Testament around 200 B.C.). So it is important that great care is exercised to see how this word is used contextually in the Bible. Comparison of other passages of Scripture that use this word should also be considered and Greek authorities consulted (Theological Dictionary Of The New Testament, p. 967). The highly acclaimed Greek manual entitled, The Linguistic Key To The Greek New Testament says that this word "...emphasizes the pre-existence and uniqueness of Christ as well as His superiority over creation. The term does not indicate that Christ was a creation or a created being," (p. 567).

to be continued below:

If further research is done on this Greek word it will be discovered that this is the same meaning that other Greek grammars and lexicons give. That the meaning of this word is "preeminence" is plainly shown by reading verses seventeen and eighteen of Colossians chapter one. These verses say: "And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist (or, "hold together"). And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence," (emphasis mine). Only the omnipresent, omnipotent God Almighty is able to hold all things together.

It is also stated that He "is before all things" and "is the beginning." This shows Christ's eternality. No mere "spirit creature" could have such power attributed to him! Only the God of the universe, Who came to earth in the Person of Jesus Christ and is risen from the dead with preeminence over "all things," could be extolled in such majestic words! He alone as God deserves all worship and praise just as the angels do in heaven!! (Heb. 1:6; cf. Lk. 4:8)

It is equally important to note that God calls Ephraim, the son of Joseph, His "firstborn" in Jeremiah 31:9. Since Ephraim was Joseph's second son born after Manasseh, it is evident again how the Scriptures use this concept. As in Colossians 1:15, the meaning is "preeminence" and does not refer to a literal firstborn son. Compare this verse with Genesis 48:14 where Israel put his right hand on Ephraim's head and not Manasseh's when he was about to bless them. In the Septuagent, this same Greek word, PROTOTOKOS, is used in Jeremiah 31:9. So the Bible gives its own definition of this word regardless of any other source.

TeeM... when I look in the mirror... I see MYSELF. So if God is looking at Jesus and sees HIMSELF...what does that tell you?

~~~The point here is that in Isaiah 44, Jehovah clearly says not only that He created by Himself, but that NO ONE else was with Him!!! Please read the entire chapter in context.

Isaiah 44 NWT

6 “This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. 7 And who is there like me? Let him call out, that he may tell it and present it to me. From when I appointed the people of long ago, both the things coming and the things that will enter in let them tell on their part. 8 Do not be in dread, YOU people, and do not become stupefied. Have I not from that time on caused you individually to hear and told [it] out? And YOU are my witnesses. Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none.’”

24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? 25 [I am] frustrating the signs of the empty talkers, and [I am] the One that makes diviners themselves act crazily; the One turning wise men backwards, and the One that turns even their knowledge into foolishness; 26 the One making the word of his servant come true, and the One that carries out completely the counsel of his own messengers; the One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ and of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up’; 27 the One saying to the watery deep, ‘Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up’;

Answer 1

Well, you missed verse 15 of Colossians chapter1 which reads "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." If you continue with the text you quoted (verse 16), it says that "because my means of him all (other) things were created......... All (other) things have been created through him and for him...."

Anna, the answer is staring right at you! Jehovah created Jesus, the firstborn of all Creation and through him (Jesus, by means of him) ALL OTHER THINGS were created. . . All OTHER THINGS have been created through him and for him.” Clearly, the book of Colossians chapter 1 is not implying that Jesus and Jehovah are one of the same creator. It is clear that Jesus is Jehovah's firstborn of all creation and because of his Son, Jesus, Jehovah created other things.

Genesis 1.... "In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

You again, forgot to mention Genesis 1:26..... "And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness...."

KEY WORD--- "our" (plural-- more than one)

If Jehovah and Jesus are equal and ONE, does this mean that God is talking to himself?

No. Jehovah here is talking to Jesus.... because after Jehovah created Jesus, Jehovah created OTHER THINGS (Col 1: 16) -----(like the heaves, the earth, the flying creatures, ....MEN in their image).

So, you are right. Jehovah cannot lie and He is not lying. He is our Creator.

......and since Jesus was present during God's creating all other things, Jesus said in Proverbs 8:30 ..." then I came to be beside Him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time...."

Answer 2

At John 1:3 and Col 1:16 the expression 'through' him in Greek literally means 'channel'

It is in the context of a writer sending his words through a messenger.

The messenger is not the author, but is the channel by which the word comes.

According to my NASB and my 'Harper Bible Dictionary', Prov 8 applies to Jesus and not the Holy Spirit.

According to Gen 1:26 bible scholars reconize that Jehovah is talking to Jesus in his pre earthly role as 'master worker'

(Job 1:6) 6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

Job 1:6 shows there are many sons of God in heaven.

Col 1:15, which you skipped. States Jesus is an image, and the firstborn of all creation.

According to Harpers Bible Dictionary, Firstborn means 'eldest'

The expression 'of' means Jesus is part of all creation.

Example: He is the foremost of men, means that the foremost is a man, greater than all other men.

Jesus is the eldest or oldest of all creation.

The expression 'over' all creation is changing the meanings of the greek word used.

According to Biblegateway.com, to understand Col 1:15-18 You have to understand Plato.

So are you a disciple of Christ or of Plato?

To deny Christ being the only begotten Son, the Firstborn is to call Jehovah Jesus, and Paul a liar.



edit:

It doesn't matter if you use firstborn or preeminent

(American Heritage Dictionary = one who stands out, important)

Col 1:15 would read, "The most important of all creation."

This phrase still teaches that Jesus is created and that he is a very important part of creation.

You are also ignoring the first part of the scripture -15 He is the image of the invisible God

What do you see when you look into a mirror?

Do those items have any power by themselves?

That apple in your hand, if you dropped the real fruit to grab the image what would you have left?

Quit worshiping the image and focus on learning the true God. (1 Cor 8:6 'one God the Father')

Answer 3

i couldnt be bothered to read all your question and additions to it, sorry but there was a lot. but they believe jehovah to be the creator. jehovah is mentioned only once in the bible as ref to Gods name. they believe this was Gods name.

Answer 4

Why do you even ask? You don't care what the answer is as you will refuse to believe it, so get a life.

Answer 5

See also John 10:30 I and my father are one. John 1:1 the W in Word and its capitalization is in reference to Jesus was with God and is God. They have no valid reply. You make a great point to frustrate them.

Answer 6

Excellent question. I wait for their anwers

Answer 7

father, son and holy spirit are one so god created the earth. jws don't believe in jesus being god on earth and therefore don't believe in the trinity and so on. they have to believe what the watchtower tell them to and they can't question this believe. i await their answers with interest

Answer 8

I don't know if they'll read the above, because the Watchtower forbids them to read anti-JW literature because the truth will set them free!

Answer 9

Charles Taze Russell and 'Judge' Rutherford created the religion of JWs

Answer 10

Trick question! Creationism isn't correct no matter who has supposedly "created" everything. Therefore the question is therefore invalid!