Jehovah's Witnesses, "Jesus Christ is the SAME yesterday and today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8 (NWT)...

Question

So how can He now be the archangel Michael, as the Watchtower teach ?

Bless you Shell -

Are you surprised to find Bible bashers on R & S ?

Regards.

ELBASHA -

Religion again!!!!!???

This is the Religion and Spirituality section after all...

May God bless you.

Moral Lulabella -

For more info, you can check out my Yahoo 360 blog, "Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?".

Hope it's helpful and to God's glory.

Dunc -

Thanks for your time.

You are indeed correct when you quote Daniel 10:13 which calls Michael "...ONE OF the foremost princes" (caps for emphasis). This scripture provides evidence that there are A NUMBER of archangels, not just one.

For what it's worth, Jewish tradition teaches that there are SEVEN archangels. It is my personal belief that these correspond to the seven angels who stand before the throne of God (Revelation 8:2). Michael is but ONE of them.

I believe that it is his voice which announces the coming of the bridegroom (the Lord Jesus) in Matthew 25:6 - "Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!". Jesus does not announce Himself.

Dunc -

The term "archangel" only ever occurs in the singular because it is only ever used in A SINGULAR CONTEXT.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 -

Again, I refer to Matthew 25:6. The bridegroom's coming is announced BY SOMEONE ELSE.

The cry of command belong's to Jesus, but not the archangel's voice. Neither does Jesus sound the trumpet. The last trumpet is sounded by an ANGEL (Revelation 11:15). It is this angel who also announces the Lord's return.

You mention that Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords Rev.17:14, also 19:16).
This title is also given to someone in 1 Timothy 6:15, who is that ?

And who share the titles "Alpha and Omega" (Rev. 1:8, 22:13) and "The First and Last" (Isaiah 44:6, Rev. 22:13) ?

Dunc -

I notice that you have not actually addressed Hebrews 13:8.

How do you reconcile your assertion that Jesus has resumed the name of Michael with this scripture ?

Jesus THE MAN did not exist prior to His birth. The scripture does not say MICHAEL or THE WORD. It says that JESUS is the SAME, and that FOREVER.

So how can He now be Michael ?

Actung Heiss -

I believe that you need to be reminded of Daniel 10:13, which - even in the NWT - refers to Michael as "..one of the foremost princes".

It is, in fact, JEWISH TRADITION - not Christendom - which teaches that there are 7 archangels.

Is it a coincidence that there are 7 angels who sound trumpets in Revelation ?

Is it a coincidence that there are 7 angels before the throne of God in Revelation ?

The greeting in Revelation 1:4 - 5 mentions the seven Spirits before God's throne. Although many Christian commentator's believe this to refer to the Holy Spirit in fullness, this is by no means certain. The seven Spirits could POSSIBLY correspond to the seven angels before the throne. If so, then we need to note that 1:5 additionally refers to Jesus Christ. He is NOT included in the seven. Hence, not an archangel.

By the way, JW's do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, so according to your theology, how could a greeting come from Him in 1:4 ?

So, as - according to your theology - the Holy Spirit is an impersonal "active force" and could not give a greeting of "grace and peace" (Rev. 1:4), who are the seven Spirits ?

If these ARE archangels before God's throne, then Christ cannot be one as He is mentioned separately (Rev 1:5).

Comments ?

Dunc -

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus resumed the name of Michael ? Book, chapter and verse(s), please...

Regarding Jewish tradition, some further comments -

While such tradition cannot be used as a BASIS for Christian doctrine, it can arguably be employed to SUPPORT biblical teaching.

Consider -

The epistle of Jude contains quotes from the non - biblical works 1 Enoch (v.14) and the Assumption of Moses (v.9 - often quoted by JW's to support the Jesus is Michael theory). This proves that certain non - canonical writings ("tradition") can be - cautiously - used in illuminating biblical teaching.

In Jewish tradition, the 7 archangels (including Michael) are referred to as the "Angels of the Presence".

Compare that term with Gabriel's words in Luke 1:19, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the PRESENCE (Gr. enopion) of God..." (NKJV, caps for emphasis).

If Jesus is now Michael and - as the WT seems to imply - the first century Christians were taught and believed this, why is there no explicit reference to Him being so in the NT ?

One of the arguments often employed by the WT when arguing against the teaching of Christ's deity runs along the lines of, "Jesus never claimed to be God". I beg to differ. What about Revelation 22:13, as clear a claim to deity BY THE LORD as you are likely to find in scripture ? However, my point is that I fail to see in the NT where Jesus or the apostolic writers made an explicit statement that He was Michael.

Why is it that NONE of the references to the risen and ascended Lord Jesus do not pertain to Michael, the name which He allegedly resumed ? If this was common knowledge among the first century church, why no explicit mention of it ?

Consider -

"...when the LORD JESUS is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels..." 2 Thessalonians 1:7.

"...Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;" Revelation 12:7.

Were the Spirit - inspired writers of the NT suffering from spiritual schizophrenia ?

Not at all. They were just referring to DIFFERENT persons.

Both a GENERAL and a CAPTAIN can lead the same army. Hence, Jesus and Michael can both lead the armies of heaven on different occasions.

Re - 2 Thessalonians 1:7 and the coming of Jesus with His angels -

"Look! JEHOVAH came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all..." Jude 14,15 (NWT, emphasis mine.)

Compare with -

"...at the revelation of the LORD JESUS from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God..." 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 (NWT, emphasis mine).

And...

Compare Revelation 19:6 & it's description of the Word of God as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS with 1 Timothy 6:15. Who is referred to as King of kings and Lord of lords there ?

Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev. 1:8), the First and the Last (Isaiah 44:6) and the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:15).

And so is Jesus (Rev. 22:13, 19:16).

" gar heis theos kai heis mesites theos kai anthropos anthropos Christos Iesous"

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, (the) man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5.

The absence of the article before "man" in the Greek suggests the translation, "Christ Jesus, Himself a man."

Does Christ's mediatorial ministry referred to consist solely of a one - time act, the sacrifice of Himself for sin ?

The scripture says,

"Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us." Romans 8:34 (NWT).

The Greek word translated "pleads" is "entugchano" and is used in the PRESENT ACTIVE INDICATIVE TENSE. In layman's terms, that means that Christ's mediatorial, intercessory ministry of high priest is an ONGOING work. Hence, he "pleads" for us.

How then, can "the MAN" Christ Jesus, in His mediatorial role, be an ANGEL ?

Does THE MAN Christ Jesus' mediatorial ministry consist of more than just his wonderful, perfect sacrifice of Himself ?

I believe so, consider -

Hebrews 4:15 & 16,

"For we have as a high priest (Jesus), not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin. Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time." (NWT, insertion mine).

"Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them." Hebrews 7:25 (NWT).

These scriptures - at the very least - strongly suggest that the mediatorial, high priestly ministry of Christ is active in addition to His sin - atoning death.

THE MAN, Christ Jesus.

Charles Taze Russell - arguably the founder of the Watchtower - once (in) famously wrote that, "...the MAN Jesus is dead, forever dead." (The Atonement Between God and Man, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 5, 1899, Pg.454).

So the NT is full of references to a "dead man"...

But now the question arises: Is there real continuity between the Son of God in his prehuman and human state ? Was the child born of Mary really the same individual who existed previously in heaven as the Archangel Michael ? To this question it is difficult to give an unambiguous answer. On the one hand, Jehovah's Witnesses frequently speak of "Christ's prehuman existence," say that the angel Michael was actually Jesus Christ in his prehuman spirit form, and assert that it was God's only - begotten Son who became a man. Other passages from their writings, however, imply that there was no real continuity between Michael and the man Jesus Christ:

"That the Son of God born on earth was no mighty spirit person clothing himself with a baby's fleshly form and pretending to be absolutely ignorant like a newborn infant is proved by the scripture (Philippians 2:5 - 8), which shows he laid aside COMPLETELY his spirit existence..." The Truth Shall Make You Free, pg. 246 (emphasis mine).

"By this miracle (the virgin birth) he was born a man (Philippians 2:7). He was NOT a spirit - human hybrid, a man and at the same time a spirit person, but he WAS flesh." Religion for Mankind, pg.231(first emphasis mine).

If Christ, however, was not a spirit person during his human state, but only a man, was not his birth the birth of a new individual, rather than the transfer of a heavenly life to the womb of Mary ? If Christ completely laid aside his previous spirit existence, how could he still be the individual who had lived in that spirit existence ?...

Answer 1

bible basher

Answer 2

question: how then can he nonetheless be a similar the former day on the instant and continuously if he has replaced? Did Jesus have a human fleshly physique in the previous coming to earth? So he's a similar the former day on the instant and continuously? Can and did Jesus die in the previous and after being on the earth so he's a similar the former day on the instant and continuously? of course no longer. (a million Cor 15:fifty 3,fifty 4) So what does right here recommend: "Jesus Christ is a similar the former day, on the instant, and continuously." All this states is that Jesus has no longer replaced in his loyalty and purpose in the direction of God. He has remained honest. He has no longer replaced in his character, yet maintains interior a similar love as he verified from commencing up and could do in throughout the time of all eternity. To study into this some obscure meaning approximately an unchangeable "essence" is going a good distance previous what's asserted. all of us understand that Jesus has replaced in some techniques, case in point, in that he left his glory to alter right into a guy. Now he has been enormously exalted by using Jehovah God. "for this reason God exalted him to the optimum place and gave him the call it extremely is above each and every call"

Answer 3

Dear Carl,

That is one of my favorie verses and you've asked a great question.

It is amazing that the verse was not even distorted in any way by the NWT. Watchtower Witnesses either have to admit that the Bible lies or they lie in saying that Jesus Christ is a created being. They cannot both be telling the truth.

In my copy of the NWT (given to me by a family member who later left the jws) I made a note at Hebrews 13:8: "How could this be IF He were created? See Malachi 3:6."

The NWT says "For I am Jehovah; I have not changed."
The NIV says "I the LORD do not change. So you. O descendants of Jacob, are not detroyed."
The NKJV says "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob."

Edit: I'm not surprised to find Bible-bashers in R&S. After all the church is the best hiding place for Satan so it isn't a big leap of the imagination to figure that he will hang out where ever he can deceive as many as possible.

Answer 4

Jesus is the ETERNAL WORD of God....and is the SAME always... JWs are missing out. Satan has deceived them well. They truly think they have the truth.

I would like to make one other point about this Jesus/Michael debacle. WHY would God go through the trouble of having Mary get pregnant as a virgin and give birth if Jesus was just going to morph into Michael after he ascended to heaven? I'm afraid they've got this all wrong. I continue to pray.

God Bless! xo Anna

Answer 5

Amen. The rubber hits the road when it comes to the question of Who Jesus is. It is the essential question of life or death before God.

My response is that Jesus was Jehovah God born in a manger. That often will cause the upper lip to involuntarily curl up. Watch for this sign when any true word counters false teaching.

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. The time is short.

Answer 6

Jesus was never or will ever be the archangel Micheal.

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. Jesus is God. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." John 1:1

Actually, the entire book of John goes against all gnostic teachings (JW, LDS and the Way...to mention a few.)

Peace be with you.

Answer 7

Carl,

I noticed you stopped prior to Rev 1:6, where John tells us that Christians will be priest to his (Jesus') God and Father

(Revelation 1:6) 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

Also

(Revelation 3:12) 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

Jesus Literally says 'the God of me' at total of 5 times in Rev ch. 3.

This is 60 years after Jesus went to Heaven. So 60 years after his resurrection Jesus continued subject to his God and Father.

Did he have a God prior to going to heaven?

(John 20:16-17) . . .) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

Yes, Jesus had a God (God of me) prior to going to heaven.

Did Jesus have a God prior to his death and resurrection?

(Matthew 27:46) 46 About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “E′li, E′li, la′ma sa·bach·tha′ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Yes Jesus had a God (God of me) prior to his death and resurrection.

Did Jesus have a God prior to his coming to the earth as a human. Yes.

(Hebrews 1:9) 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”

Yes, Jesus' God anointed him and exulted him above his partners.

(Job 1:6) 6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.
So Jesus has always worship Jehovah


Jesus has always been a son of Jehovah, and will aways be a son.

(Revelation 2:18) 18 “And to the angel of the congregation in Thy·a·ti′ra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, . . .

Even in Heaven 60 years after his resurrection Jesus continued to the Son of God.

Rev 3:12 states that Jesus is getting a new name.

Since Jesus' partners are fellow angels, which angel is Jesus?

Your opinion of

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet,. . .


is only an opinion, and one that totally ignores what Paul actually says.

the Lord himself will descend from heaven . . . with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet,

What part of 'himself' don't you accept?

Why would a 'biblical christian' ignore a definite statement?


Those announcing the Bridegroom are christians following the command at Matt 28:19, 20


I love using Heb. 13:8 To show that Jesus cannot be equal to his Father.

Why do you reject the mental attitude of Christ?

(Romans 15:5-6) 5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant YOU to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, 6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus commanded us to worship Jehovah

(Matthew 4:10) . . .‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Who is the foremost apostle of God?

(Hebrews 3:1) 3 Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.

Jesus' titles are always inferior to God.

Finally, servants of God have had many names, depending on the role they are using.

Abram = Abraham
Sarai = Sarah
Jacob = Israel
Simon, Symeon, Cephas, Simon Peter, and Peter are all the same person.

So bible students aren't surprised when we see Jesus' new name.

Answer 8

1. The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of [Daniel’s] people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.

Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the “time of distress” that is associated with Michael’s standing up. (Da 12:1) Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels.

In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator.

Answer 9

This so-called "question" would seem to argue against the vast majority of self-described Christians (JW and non-JW), since the vast majority of self-described Christians believe that Jesus existed in heaven both before and after he lived on earth.

It seems odd to ignore that the context of Hebrews 13:8 plainly speaks of one's qualities and personality, rather than one's titles or bodily nature.

(Hebrews 13:6-9) 6 So that we may be of good courage and say: “Jehovah is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” 7 Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried away with various and strange teachings; for it is fine for the heart to be given firmness by undeserved kindness


Plainly, the bible speaks of Jesus in glory and honor, but also discusses the fact that at some point (which Christians may not agree on) Jesus Christ the Son (who is much more than a mere angel) has been appointed by Jehovah God the Father as King of God's Kingdom. Jehovah God is the source of Christ's authority, so that Jesus at some point is plainly "better than the angels".

(Hebrews 1:3-4) [Jesus] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he HAS BECOME better than the angels [caps added]

(Matthew 28:18) And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

(Acts 2:36) God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled.

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

(Acts 5:31) God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand

(Psalm 2:2-6) The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one... Jehovah himself will hold them in derision..., Saying: "I, even I, have installed my king [Jesus]


Such a "king" is not the peer of his subjects, and clearly, an "archangel" is not the peer of mere angels.

Christendom has pretended that Gabriel is also an archangel, and that Satan had been; both ideas have no foundation in Scripture. Some religions in Christendom invent names for four or five additional supposed "archangels"; those invented names have no foundation in Scripture. "Archangel" actually means "Chief of the Angels"; the fact remains that the bible itself speaks of only one single solitary archangel. The Scriptures never use the term "archangel" in the plural, but only in the singular.

Who is a better person than Jesus to be the single "Chief" of all faithful angels? Of whom can it be said that faithful angels belong to him, or are "his"?
2 Thes 1:7 Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels
Rev 12:7 Michael and his angels battled


The bible certainly teaches that the archangel Michael is the same person as Jesus.


Note that Jesus the Lord calls with an archangel's voice:
1 Thes 4:14-16 Jesus died and rose again, so, too... the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice


Do two different persons present themselves during a time of "distress" such as has "not occurred" before?

Dan 12:1 And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.

Matt 24:3-21 Disciples [asked Jesus] what will be the sign of your presence...?" And in answer Jesus said to them: "...All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. ...for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now


Do two different persons both lead the heavenly armies?

Rev 19:13,14 [Jesus] is The Word of God. Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him

Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled


Once you study it, the bible really teaches that Michael is another name for Jesus. Though the term may confuse some, Jesus can properly be called an "archangel" or an "angel" (though not a mere angel) or a "son of God" or a "morning star" (though not a mere 'morning star'). Interestingly, the Scriptures refer to *ALL* angelic spirit creatures as "morning stars" (not just Jesus or Lucifer). Note that the archangel Jesus is uniquely elevated above mere angels by the title "the BRIGHT morning star".

Job 38:4,7 When [Jehovah] founded the earth... When the morning stars [or "angels"] joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause

Rev 22:16 I, Jesus... I am the root and the offspring of David, and the BRIGHT morning star. [caps added]

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_01.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/19951101/article_02.htm

Answer 10

only in peoples minds.the bloke died 2000 yrs ago.why don't people get on with their own lives and leave the dead to rest in peace.he must be turning in his grave.the guy was only a carpenter you know who was crucified along with others for turning against the state.

Answer 11

The Jehovah Witness religion is a joke. Any one that practices that religion should be placed on the island of misfits toys.