Reincarnation vs. illusion in Buddhist theology?

Question

Serious replies only, please.

As I understand it, Buddhism teaches that the self is an illusion. Yet it also teaches reincarnation. Aren't these contradictory? If there is no self, what gets reincarnated?

Answer the whole question please. Most of you have gone on at length about the notion of self but ignored the reincarnation question altogether. All the talk about teachers and who can understand what basically boils down to "you cannot know until you enter the Chamber of Secrets," which is the same as no answer at all. But thanks to the guy with the good (and not condescending) answer.

Answer 1

You are quite right, Buddhism teaches that everything in our experience is impermanent and therefore an illusion as long as you think in terms of permanence. When you think in terms of impermanence then the illusion falls away.

The notion of "self" is an illusion because we think of it in terms of a permanent part of what makes me...well...me.
It can be hurt, therefore "we" can be hurt when "we" are challenged, but think what would happen if we considered this "me" impermanent.

Then when it is hurt, we think then "OK, that "me" got hurt, but it isn't really "me", that part is deep inside and generally overwhelmed by everyday experience and only really gets recognised when I meditate, so what really got hurt just now...?...oh yes...that's the illusory "me"...the one which changes every second...every time a decision is made or choice taken"....the illusion is broken because your awareness through meditation has recognised the "real you" is hidden from your perceptions and the hurt you felt was transitory and not permanent and therefore also illusion..not worthy of clinging to in any way.

What then about "us" is Reborn when Rebirth occurs...a very good point. As nothing is permanent about "us", then to Buddhists nothing about "us" survives beyond death. No ego, gender, thoughts, ideas, all of these parts of the present "us" is destroyed.

In Buddhist Cosmology, a Rebirth occurs when 3 factors are present. A father's sperm, a mother's egg and what Buddhists call "Ignorance". This is not a demeaning term of stupidity or a stupid person, rather it is a Dharma term, the Pali word is Avijja, an all embracing term for the illusions of the consciousness often called Defilements. This Avijja is caused by the arising of "self" in the consciousness, as explained above albeit briefly.

As there is no consciousness after death, this "Ignorance" becomes part of the Unconscious Life Stream. Again in Buddhist Cosmology, every Being is alive because of this Energy Stream, without it we are just meat on bones. It's characteristics are that it has no self awareness, it has no gender, it has no memory (although it does get affected by experiences and there are remnants of these experiences in its matrix which can surface during Mindfulness Meditation) nor does it have any human characteristics, it is simply energy. In general it is indescribable in real terms yet when a person is alive it is what makes them alive, when they are dead, the energy is missing the Pali word for it is Bhavanga-Sota. In Buddhism, this energy stream is affected by 2 things, our Consciousness (which is impermanent) and another energy Stream called Karma, in Pali Karma Vega. When there is negative Karma Vega (Ignorance) in the Bhavanga-Sota (Unconscious Life Stream) upon death, then there will be a Rebirth. The different parts of the new peson are rebuilt around the Unconscious Life Stream such as the body, senses and consciousness (all impermanent and subject to change) and the person is born. Each part of the new person is rebuilt in different measure than in the previous Life due to Karma Vega and so a different person emerges from the process.

This is why it is very rare for people to remember previous Lives, as there is no real memory surviving after death, only remnants of memory in the Bhavanga-Sota which rarely if ever emerge into the new Consciousness.

Another question which often arises in folks minds is "How then do we learn from our previous experiences to evolve beyond Rebirth and Karma..?" The simple answer is that there is no purpose to Rebirth, rather it is the result of the processes and energies of Karma and Bhavanga-Sota. A Buddhist's purpose is to reach beyond the Cycle of Life altogether. Being Reborn at all to a Buddhist is not a cause to celebrate, rather a cause to continue evolving the Mind to rid it of Defilements and negative Karmic energies so that Rebirth does not occur at all.

Vinslave, Jason.H and Sista have given excellent responses to a very difficult concept, I give them each a smile in appreciation and a bow to their insight and wisdom.

I hope that I've not confused you with terminology or caused offence by any inferences.

Peace from a Buddhist....

Answer 2

~~~jesse,,,, The self is an illusion in the sense that it is seperated from the Spiritual Whole, The Spiritual Dimension and has become a Human Being for a limited time experiencing what the Hindus call Maya, or The Illusion of The World,,, or as Shakespeare poetically referred to it as "The world is a Stage and we are the Players." We are Spiritual Beings having earthly Life Experiences(spirit AND flesh=The Spirit Incarnate) which nurtures The Soul and in turn accelerates us on this Path to Enlightenment. Then we graduate from Earth School, no longer bound by The Wheel of Karma and are ready to move on to,,,,,?

Answer 3

I'm not a Buddhist, but my beliefs are similar to some of theirs.

The no self (the ego, mind, consciousness). Is it any more contradictory than you being here but there is no self? Current Quantum physic principals also suggest that there is no self and that life as we know it is an illusion, but we still think we are here don't we? Pardon my exact science since I'm obviously not a scientist, but in dumb layman's terms, Quantum physics suggest that 99.9% of the spaces between the atoms of a material object is nothingness and String theory suggests that everything is made up of energy and matter is just energy vibrating at a different level, Energy has no beginning or end and always is, it just changes form. So what happens to us when we die? Many people now believe that there is a link between Quantum Physics, spirituality and reincarnation. I even heard Sam Harris (atheist) and author of Letter to a Christian nation, state on an interview on the Infidel Guy podcast that he is open to believing in the quantum physics principals and reincarnation.

Life is not real, there is only consciousness and one mind, the mind of god and we are all one and part of the one mind. God is dreaming and exploring the game called life.

If we exist in many dimensions at the same time, if we die in one do we die in all of them? If we do die in all of them, does god just recycle (reincarnation) us or our energy into another dream? I don't have all of the answers but I do believe that we are recycled or reincarnated since we are made of energy and don't really exist anyway. Think about it or better yet go study it.

Answer 4

Buddhists have not got self belief in reincarnation. they suspect in rebirth. that's distinctive through fact there is not any soul to be reborn in Buddhism. as a replace our movements in this life are handed directly to the subsequent. whether you're taking this to intend we are born lower back or whether that's extra to do with life on an entire through fact our movements do impact the subsequent technology, it is your decision. Siddharta Gautema (the Buddha) grow to be from India so he's in all risk to have been stimulated by using Hindu theory. some Hindus have self belief that Siddharta grow to be a reincarnation of Krishna. Hindus have self belief that living a sturdy life and having sturdy Karma will mean they might attain "moksha" (reported moksh -skill appropriate salvation). Buddhists have self belief in an identical purpose - enlightenment. once you grow to be enlightened in Buddhism you recieve the identify "the Buddha". In the two Hinduism and Buddhism, after "moksha" or the enlightenment, you would be waiting to flee the cycle of rebirth.

Answer 5

reincarnation is a hindu belief. buddhism believes in rebirth.
http://www.buddhanet.net/3-gqga.htm

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what is illusion (buddhism)?
By the time you are grown up, the concept of ego-self has become so real that it is difficult to tell what is illusion and what is reality. It is difficult to realise that "I" and "mine" are temporary, relative and changeable. The same is true of all that is related to "I" and "mine." Not understanding that "I" and "mine" are temporary, you struggle to keep them permanent; you cling to them. This desire to try to keep everything permanent is what makes it so difficult to learn to let go.

You have become so used to functioning with the "I" and "mine," so used to thinking your "self" is real, that it is naturally difficult to understand the Buddhist way of thinking. The "I" and "mine," being illusions themselves, survive only by clinging to illusions of their own making. They cling to all
kinds of mental possessions - be they power, wealth, status or whatever - which are themselves conceptual creations of the mind with no substantial reality. In short, they are also illusions.

You have to understand that what you lose is merely an illusion. It never was. You empty the mind of illusion about self. Just let go of the illusion.

In fact, you are not losing anything. You just remove an imaginary screen before your eyes. In the process you gain wisdom, or pañña. From this wisdom unfold the four virtues of unconditional love, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. These virtues manifest themselves as concern, humanness and sensitivity to others. When you have pañña you can fully experience the beauty and warmth that is within all human relationships.

That is why letting go is not losing your illusory ego. You are actually uncovering a great treasure.

Answer 6

yes, you are very close to understanding it
the "self" is the ego
its like an idea in your head
its a reflection
if you think about this
you will see that it is only a caricature
a reflection of what you ask?
its hard to answer that in words

each moment is unique
there is only a pattern
constantly changing
no "self" that is changing
only change

the popular regurgitatioin of reincarnation is absurd

the concepts can be difficult to comprehend
for someone raised in
"i think therefore i am" culture
actually hard to let go of fundamental faulty assumptions

one idea that might help
think of yourself when you were much younger
was this the same "you" as you are now?
how about when you are really angry
is that the same "you" as when you are happy?

Answer 7

There are two rivers of teaching in Buddhism: Sutra and Tantra. They both flow into the body of teaching called the Lam Rim - or stages of the path. The Lam Rim condenses all of the Buddha's pronouncements of both Sutra and Tantra. Further, there are said to be three kinds of beings with different capacity - small, medium and great. The teachings shared in common with beings of small capacity are foundational to the teachings for beings of medium capacity and these together are the foundation for teachings of beings of great capacity. Likewise, the Sutra teachings are foundational to the Tantra teachings. Buddhist teachings are not theosophical. Buddhism does not posit reincarnation, rather rebirth. It is a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless. Buddhism does not say that things are an illusion, but rather that things are illusory. A subtle difference but a difference nonetheless. Since a key understanding of any of the Buddha's pronouncements is "what to adopt and what to abandon" - you should start at the beginning. Lord Atisha in his Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment starts with an homage to the Conqueror's of the Three Times - this is an implicit reference to the importance of a Teacher. Even Lama Tsong Khapa in his Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment (which is an expansive commentary on the Atisha's Lamp) spends a fair amount of time on the importance of a Teacher and devotion to the Teacher. There are ten qualities to be found in a teacher according to Lord Maitreya's Mahayanasutralamkara that are quite specific. In other words, you should find a qualified Teacher and not necessarily count on the opinions of those of us in this forum who have just a little experience with these things. You should not take as a Teacher one who does not possess the three higher trainings and you should especially not take as a Teacher someone who can not teach the whole path as you would not reach the desired goal. One other point I would like to make is that some teachings for beings of lower capacity or of lower scope, or tenet systems of lower schools are necessary to understand, then be abandoned when the next attainment is approached - kind of like a snake molting. So, you wouldn't approach the topic of selflessness of persons or phenomena before an understanding of suffering and its causes had been established. This would support the certainty of rebirth in any of cyclic existence and help you formulate the renunciation that spurs the attainment of refuge. But refuge in what? You have to know what the Three Jewels of refuge are if you are to develop any certainty in their ability to help you. So, this is a worthwhile question - it is very good to have questions and to remove doubt but you don't want to approach some of these topics without the foundation of understanding by which they are supported. I would strongly encourage you to find a Mahayana Spiritual Friend who can teach you all of these things in a systematic way so that your energy is not wasted and your concepts of self are not reinforced. Many, many people in this forum toss terminology around too casually and think that a couple of memorized or copied phrases from a book count as experience. You don't want to end up thinking "nothing exists," and you are to try and empty your mind and end up like the Chinese Abbot Hashang. You want to develop certainty in the law of cause and effect, proper refuge, a foundation in ethics and a good practice of purification based on the four opponent powers. This will give you some certainty of the trainings for beings of small capacity. Then you think of the precious human life and develop some faith in the Three Jewels. Then you maybe consider all six realms and the three sufferings and see how suffering pervades all of cyclic existence and then you attain some understanding of the Dharma relative to the Four Noble Truths that supplants the view of small capacity beings relative to this key teaching and you build from there. If you wanted to get to California you could start walking west but you would certainly have a lot to contend with. Or you could make a plan, coordinate your effort, ask someone knowledgeable about these things and find yourself there in one day (with the proper causes and conditions.) It's up to you.

Answer 8

Strictly speaking in Buddhism there is no reincarnation which would entail the rebirth of the personality and ego. They talk of rebirth where only the "Atman"-the karma and consciousness of the individual- survives to be incarnated in another body.

Answer 9

You need to cultivate a more defined understanding of what we mean by "illusion". Too many people read the concepts without studying any deeper... I will try to clarify as I can.

The concept of "self" as "illusory" is because of the understanding that, when you sit down and look for an INHERENTLY existing "self" you cannot find it. What is this self? Your atomic structure? Are you your cells, organs, hair, thoughts? No. You are a conglomeration of "parts" that you LABEL as "self" or "I".

Emptiness IS form... form IS emptiness. You exist because you're a heap of parts, but it's illusory because you're grasping at this definition of "self" most philosophy grasps at as "inherently existing".

About rebirth... we believe mind goes on... certainly, mind is not "self", mind is part of the illusion. It exists but like "self" it's empty of inherent existence. Mind is like your thoughts, if you will, they're not concrete objects, but they exist AND they are illusory just like this "self" you grasp at.

All things arise due to causes and conditions, are changing and impermanent.

Does this clarify?

_()_

Answer 10

They aren't contridictory. Illusion may mean more than a "trick of the mind". It also has a sense of metaphor, of shadow, such as Plato mentioned, and other senses. The word is used in a sense that implies that what we see as reality is only an aspect of reality, and that from the inside, we can't see the larger picture.