For Jehovah's Witnesses...?

Question

In regard to the 144,000 and "other sheep" teaching: As I understand it, the 144,000 heavenly places were being filled from the day of Pentecost onwards, right ? Is there anything in the writings of the 2nd century church "fathers" or in church history PRIOR to the establishment of the Watchtower society, to indicate that this doctrine was understood & taught among Christians ? If not, why ?

Thanks in advance for all answers.

PS I'm aware of the WT teaching on the 144,000. I am interested only in learning of any evidence that might exist to show that this teaching is not just a recent invention by the WT. So - please - no lengthy explanations of the teaching. Only what is relevant to the question.

amsop -

You can't worship Jesus & NOT worship Jehovah / Yahweh. The Bible says that anyone who does not have the Son does not have the Father (1 John 2:23). The reverse is equally true.
Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30).

So is there ANY evidence to show that 1st century & later "true" Christians (pre - Watchtower) believed in the 144,000 and "other sheep" doctrines ? Any more JW answerers ?

Why would Jehovah wait until about 1900 years after the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to reveal this "new light" that only 144,000 would reign with Christ ? Surely such an important teaching would have been made known to "true" Christians much earlier.

Why is there apparently NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE that this doctrine was believed by any professing Christians prior to the Watchtower teaching it ? I suggest that it was totally ALIEN to the historical church (in any form) & is merely a recent INVENTION of the Watchtower.

If any witness is able to provide evidence from history to substantiate the WT's claim to the validity of this doctrine, please feel free to submit it.

Hi pink.jazzz.

Thanks for your contribution.

Yes, I AM a Christian & I believe what the Bible teaches.

"...earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Christians)." Jude 3.

The Jehovah - Witness teaching that only 144,000 go to be with the Lord Jesus is one of many that are contrary to what the Bible actually teaches. As a Christian, I am obliged to point out this error.

In turn, JW's also point out what they believe to be false in regard to Christian teaching.

Neither I or they (I would assume) would consider this to be "bashing" anyone, unless of course, this disagreement is expressed with foul and abusive language, which is not the case here, I feel.

Hope this helps. May God bless you.

Carl.

Keichi & Terry -

Thanks for your replies.

I note that neither of you have been able to provide any historical evidence that the 144,000 & "other sheep" doctrine was believed and taught by any professing Christians prior to the Watchtower. You might argue that the historical writings of "apostate" Christians would not allude to such doctrines, but this is not the case. Apparently, most of the knowledge we have on the teachings of Arius comes from material written by his OPPONENTS. If we have such material from the pen of "apostate Christendom" on this matter, why the absence of refutation on the subject of the 144,000 ? The answer is that the teaching did not exist until about 1900 years into church history. An INVENTION by the WT, gentlemen.

Terry -

In regard to answering your e - mails, I am still working on that. By your own admission, one of your e - mails was lengthy (which you apologised for), therefore, the response will take some time.
In regard to "image" worship -

"I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to NO ONE ELSE SHALL I GIVE MY OWN GLORY, neither my praise to graven images." Isaiah 42:8 (NWT, emphasis mine)

Compare with Revelation 5:13,14 -

"And every creature that is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: "To the One sitting on the throne AND TO THE LAMB be the blessing and the honor and the GLORY and the might forever and ever." And the four living creatures went saying: "Amen!" and the elders fell down and WORSHIPED." (NWT, emphasis mine).

So, is Jehovah sharing His GLORY with a graven image here ?

Is there any hint in the Greek text of a distinction made between the glory & worship given to the One on the throne...

..and to the Lamb ?

I can't see it.

God's glory is for GOD.

Worship is for GOD.

Yet the Lamb (Jesus) CLEARLY shares the glory and worship given to the One on the throne in these verses.

Like Jehovah, Jesus claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega (see Rev.1:8, 22:13).

Whoever does not honour the Son just as the Father is in disobedience to God's word
(John 5:23).

Do YOU believe John, Terry ?

Incidentally, I'm STILL waiting for you to comment on the link to the Council of Europe website which I forwarded to you. The link which shows that the Bulgarian JW's denied that any witness who received a blood transfusion would be subject to sanctions from the society. Your thoughts, Terry ?

If anyone else would be interested in receiving this link, please feel free to contact me. This link is NOT to an "apostate" site.

I have extended the expiry date on this Q to allow JW's opportunity to come up with some evidence. Kindly restrict your replies to the subject concerned. Thank you.

Keichi -

Thank you for your comments.

I assume that you still do not have any historical evidence to submit in support of the assertion that the 144,000 & "other sheep" doctrines were known and taught by the early church ?

Regarding Jesus being called not only the Alpha and the Omega, but also the First and the Last (just as Jehovah is in Isaiah 44:6) -

These are obviously UNIQUE terms. How many "First and Last's" & "Alpha and Omega's" can there reasonably be ? Who else are these terms used to refer to in the Bible apart from Jehovah and Jesus ?

Jesus is referrred to as "the Mighty God" (el gibbowr) in Isaiah 9:6 as also is Jehovah in Isaiah 10:21.

John 5:23 CLEARLY says that the Son is to be honoured JUST AS THE FATHER. We do not honur parents just as we honur God, do we ? Although the Greek term "timao" does not specifically mean "worship", it is most certainly implied here. How can one honour the Son just as they honour the Father without worship also ? Impossible. What more can I add to that ?

Revelation 5:13,14 -

The glory and worship given to the One on the throne and to the Lamb is obviously SHARED. The text does not even HINT at any distinction being made between the two in regard to the quality of glory given and worship rendered. This is a KEY section of scripture to show that it IS Jehovah's will for the Lamb to receive worship. The same worship as Him (John 5:23).

1 Corinthians 15:24 refers to Christ's subjection to the Father once He has abolished all rule and authority and power. His subjection to the Father does not indicate inferiority in terms of essence.

Children are subject to their human parents, yet ESSENTIALLY they are equal to them, are they not ?

Are human children CREATED by their parents, or BEGOTTEN ?

How about John 20:28 ?

Can there be a clearer statement concerning Christ's deity ?

Lit. "The Lord of me and THE God of me!"

From the mouth of a monotheistic Jew, no less.

Question is still open for anyone who might care to answer...

I would appreciate it if we could stick to the subject at hand, please...

Keichi -

You wrote "..the 144,000 teaching was put on the back burner" by the early church.

Would you care to quote your historical source to support that statement ?

Furthermore, in regard to Arius -

According to my sources, Arius NEVER taught that Jesus was the archangel Michael. Apparently, he also taught that the Holy Sprit WAS a person (albeit created), not an impersonal, "active force". Please feel free to correct me on this.

I will close this Q now as it appears that no JW is able to offer any historical evidence for the existence of the 144,000 and "other sheep" doctrine prior to the inception of the Watchtower.

If Keichi does come up with historical evidence to validate his statement that the teaching was "put on the back burner" by the early church, he can leave that in the comments section for interested parties to view.

Thanks to all who took the time to answer.

Answer 1

From what JWs have told me, and from what I've read in their literature, they say that the144,000 doctrine was "new light" around the 1930s. This is substantiated by the fact that prior to this "new light", ALL JWs (then known as Bible Students) took the bread and wine at the Lord's Supper. No numbers are available for that, but once the "great crowd of other sheep" teaching was introduced, quite quickly, most of them stopped taking bread and wine. It certainly is a recent teaching - totally new to the Christian faith - and I know of no other group (no matter how insignificant) that proclaimed anything similar.

I have a classic book on the history of the Church that details many groups of believers who rejected the Church of Rome and were persecuted as a result. In JW estimation, they would be the ones likely constituting the "thin red line" of true believers (that they claim to have come from). Yet even their numbers vastly exceed 144,000! This does not square with JW doctrine of course, so it is ignored. Church History, as a subject, is avoided by JWs like the plague. Very short articles purporting to give a 'Readers' Digest' of Church History appear in the Watchtower and the Awake, but they always avoid facing up to the sheer numbers of faithful Christians over the centuries, and that every last one of them believed they would go to heaven to be with Christ after their deaths.

Answer 2

There was a great apostacy that started soon after the apostles of Jesus died. This is evident from the greatly diversifying beliefs promoted by early writers. Christianity was slowly corrupted.

Jesus fortold this by means of his illustration of the wheat and the weeds. The weeds represent countafeit Christianity ("sons of the wicked one"), the wheat true Christians. (Mt 13:24-30; 36-43)

True Chrstians existed throughout the centuries (Mt 28:20 may also suggest this) but were greatly out numbered by and so hidden by the weeds. Jehovah's Witnesses do not expect to find much truth in the writings of the so called Church fathers.

As for what they say on John 10:16 see:
http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php

You can also search there for
Rev 7:4; 14:1,3

Some of the connections listed are quite loose.

The best evidence of this teaching is of course the Bible itself. God's purose is for a "new heavens and a new earth" this refers to a heavenly government and new earth society. Those bought from the earth, serve in heaven as kings and priests, they rule over the earth (Rev 5:10 see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/greektheology/message/457 )

hope there is some helpful information here
warm regards
Ousboui
(I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses)

Answer 3

Ousboui is correct. at Acts 20:29-30 Paul says "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."
In 2Thessalonians chapter 2 Paul expounds upon this collective "man of lawlessness". In verses 6 and 7 he says that even then, this apostasy was trying to take hold. But there was a restraint in that some of the apostles and others who had personally been taught by Jesus Christ were still alive and able to correct any false teaching that infiltrated the Christian church.

Answer 4

The two women of revelation.

Jesus has his bride, the 144,000

Rev 12:7 - And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus.

Satan has his Harlot, Babylon the Great*.

Revelation 17:5-6 “MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

It goes on to say “She is drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (Revelation 17:5-6).

Rome killed Jesus and his apostles. Her “Church” adopted the same practices as the Empire.

Why then would the Harlot want to teach about Jesus bride if they are in enmity with each other?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Answer 5

What I was led to understand was, all those that had died before Armaggedon would be raised again and judged accordingly, even non believers. so in relation to the 144,000 I can't see how they can already be chosen. It's a good critical question my dear and one the Witnesses themselves should know.

Answer 6

Sheesh! Whats with all the JW bashing around here?
Why you hung up over what they believe? Live & let live.
This isnt a question, its a dig at them
ARE you guys christian or what?

Answer 7

Good Question.

I was told that all of the Bible Sudents before a certain date (1930?) were anointed and part of the 144,000 and that is why they all partook of the bread and wine.

The error here is:

Revelation 7:

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Look at verse nine real closely and look again and again!

How many stood before the throne?
And what are these stating?
Who and how many are before God's throne and are of salvation?

Now be truthful to yourself!! Is it 144,000?

NWT
9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Answer 8

I thought you were finding answers to all my questions?

A few of the many.

When did image worship become acceptable?
2 Cor 4:4, Heb 1:3, Col 1:15

Are you a disciple of Jesus or Plato, (Comments from 'Biblegateway.com)

Answer to your question

1st century christians who believed in 144000 going to heaven.

Apostle John. (I didn't know he was quoting the WT)

(Revelation 5:9-10) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you <> persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Those bought are from every tribe and nation.

(Revelation 14:3) 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the <>, who have been << bought >>from the earth.

the number bought is 144000

(Revelation 7:4-8) 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, <>, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand; 6 out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Naph′ta·li twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Ma·nas′seh twelve thousand; 7 out of the tribe of Sim′e·on twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Is′sa·char twelve thousand; 8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u·lun twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

The 144000 are spiritual Israelites,

(unless Jesus made a mistake in listing the tribes of Israel in the book of Revelation compare his list to the actual sons of Jacob, or the list in the book of Numbers)

this agrees with (Galatians 6:16) 16 And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.

because vs 15 calls the Israel of God, a new creation.

I don't believe Carl is bashing, but he does seem to fulfill

(2 Timothy 3:4-7) . . ., 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.


He seems to ask alot of questions and then ignores the bible's direct answer to them.

Some more questions I'm waiting for:

How Paul can lose his salvation. 1 Cor 9:27

How a person knows if he is saved or not really saved in the first place?

According to the answer you gave, all of Jehovah's Witnesses are saved.

Answer 9

I don't rely upom Jehovah witness; I am Jesus witness [Act.1:8]. I don't worship Jehovaf, who failed to built the supposed Kingdom of Heaven on earth [1 Sam.8:7-10]. I worship Jesus, the succesful King of Heaven.
That's why I don't care about 144.000 or any other number. The important thing is whther we join Jesus' Kingdom or not; of couse through repentance and deliverance.