Basic flaw in Christian logic? "True Christian" argument struck down?

Question

If one brings up the various atrocities committed in the name of God by the extremely devout, they are always branded as "not true Christians." But many of these ppl (conquistadors, witch hunters, KKK) were very devout. You often say you will be forgiven for your sins if you believe in God. Surely these extremely devout historical figures went to heaven. Considering how morals change according to the times (slavery used to be seen as morally necessary by the masters, conveniently) how can you say these terrible and devout men were not true Christians? They believed more than you did. And according to their peers they committed no sins.

And yet you proclaim for sure that the you are a Christian who will be forgiven for your sins and go to heaven.

How do you know?


Faith is malleable according to the necessities of the time.

ooops by faith I meant institutionalized faith: the type you are born into.

Jesse: I'm sure the "wrath of an angry God" is the exact same as love. The Bible is filled with hate, rape, pestilence, flood...all commanded by God. Seriously God commanded his people to burn and rape and slaughter several times in the Bible.

Answer 1

The basic argument is referred to as the "No true Scotsman argument."

Here
_____________________

‘No True Scotsman’
Explanation
The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.

Example
If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.
Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.

Real-World Examples
An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to define religious groups. In some Christian groups, for example, there is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith believe but subsequently lose it, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.
___http://www.logicalfallacies.info/notruescotsman.html__________

Answer 2

AJHL is right. Just b/c a person's peers don't find fault in him doesn't mean that person is without fault. Ever heard of blind leading the blind? I'm sure those people you speak of used Christianity at the time as a way of gaining approval for their actions as well as justifying it to themsleves. Doesn't make them devout at all. You can certainly go through the motions and never truly believe. All of the groups you mentioned had an agenda of their own and it wasn't the service of Jesus Christ.

The mixture of lies and truth is always more dangerous than either one in it's purity. That is why it is important that Christians read the bible and hold themselves and each other accountable for their actions out of love and kindness.

To prevent these groups from gaining any sort of credibility with the "claim" that they are true followers of Christ.

Please show me where in the Bible God says- "I command you to rape." I can't wait.

Answer 3

I always love how the atrocities of Christianity etc are brought up - but the atrocities of atheists are glossed over.

Fact - atheists have killed more people in this last century alone then theists have in the last 2,000 years.

Hate to be the first to break that one to you - but atheists seem to be the ones who kill without restraint.

For historical figures - one cannot say what is their heart or what happened to them after they died. We can assume all sorts of things but in the end we do not know. Also take into account that times were different with different standards set by society as to what was normal.

And if we are going to talk about slaves - where do you think the Europeans got their slaves to begin with? Despite the fact that people like the myth that Eurpoeans carried off the Africans in the night - the truth is that the Europeans bought slaves from Africans. Africans had been trading their own as slaves for centuries. When the Europeans got there and witnessed this they did the same. Not saying that slavery in any way is right - just that there is much more to it then meets the eye.

Answer 4

Who struck it down? You? LOL
If an animal goes "oink oink", is always on four feet, rolls in the mud, and has the same skins chromosomes as a human, even if it s labelled a dog, or a monkey, it will still be a pig!
If you have a beautiful olive hue to your skin, dark hair and eyes, and speak Chinese only, you can tell me that you are Anglo Saxon, but that doesn't make you Anglo Saxon.
If you always depend capitalist enterprises, encouraging that they be allowed to abuse all they want, and you oppose all social health programs, welfare programs, then label yourself a socialist, that does not make you a socialist. Even if you are a "devout" socialist.
So through the ages, Christianity became the state religion of many countries, unfortunately. But what we saw of that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ, no matter how "devout2 they claim to be. How can you be a devout follower of Jesus, and do everything contrary to everything He ever said?
Sorry, my friend, but I'm afraid your logic does not hold water.

Answer 5

I agree faith is totally personal. That anyone can use religion to justify human enslavement is beyond me, but that isn't what you are asking. To put the KKK in a group that were devout Christians is faulty in my opinion. True they did not like the Jewish people, but even they agree that in the New Testament God said to love your neighbor as yourself. They kind of threw that part away.

According to some denominations, just belief will get you into heaven. How do I know? I don't. No one does. That's the tricky thing about religion.

Answer 6

Very true....religion evolves just like people....its our job to find what we beleive and not just take into account what everyone else has said or done. Morals and values work for the time....there was a time when Catholics were jailed if they did not go to church on Sunday....that does not happen know....there was a time when the POPE praised the killing of non-christians.....moral do change.....why are ours right and theirs wrong....or the other way around....simply because when the needs of our faith have changed to the beleifs have also...it happened before and it will happen again.

And the words don't change, just the interpretation does....and who is to say that our current interpretaions are correct....the bible is a work of man...it was written by man not god....and in itself is based on the interpretations of the men who wrote it....who is to say they were correct.....part of christianity is not only beleiving but questioning and searching....how can you have faith in anything with out searching for the answers yourself and not just beleiving what you pastor says you should....that is what I call blind faith....you have to ask your own questions before you find the answers that will mean the most to you.

Answer 7

This does not prove a flaw in Christianity. It only proves people don't understand what a true Christian really is. Only God knows the heart of each man so we can not judge in all fairness who loves God from the heart or who uses God to bring about their own agenda.

Answer 8

I can't answer that for you but I sure do agree ..
I have been told that in order for you to be a true Christan you must accept Jesus as your saviour , confess your sins and accept him into your heart .. and be born again
My grandfather went to church every Sunday , lived a good honest life and believed in God and Jesus , to my knowledge he commit ed no sins and yet these false money grabbing looses tell me he will not or is not in heaven ..
when you see the testimony of some of them they were murderers , thief's , rapists , the worst of the worst and yet because they have said to have been born again they are the only ones who will be in the Kingdom of God .
How many TV Evangelists are poor ? how many of their wives can not afford Makeup and put it on with rollers ( paint rollers )...
There are so many so called" religions " each manufactured to suit the people in charge .. Take the church of England .. it was created when the King could not get a divorce because of laws or rules of his previous religion ..thus he formed it ...
changed the rules to suit ..
the word Hippocrates comes to mind here

Answer 9

The KKK were devout to what??? The answer is quite simple...if you believe upon The Lord Jesus Christ and ask Him to come into your heart, he will wipe away ALL of your sins. It really has nothing to do with morals. The most moral person may be living a very "good" life, but if they haven't asked Jesus into their heart...they will not go to Heaven. This isn't just my theory or opinion...it states is very clearly in the Bible. Some of these men you speak of may have accepted Christ at some time in their life and would, indeed, go to Heaven. But, their reward in Heaven would not be as great as if they had lived a life that was pleasing to God.
You are right about one thing...morals do change according to the times, but God never changes...His word never changes.
Lastly, I know that I will go to Heaven because I believe what the Bible says....do you know where you will spend eternity?
If you are unsure, ask Jesus to come into your heart...it's that simple.

Answer 10

Faith is believing not that we go to Heaven by anything we can do, or by works, or our own goodness.

It is an acceptance of our human condition and depravity. And of Jesus who died for us. When Satan destroyed Jesus, he made him more powerful than he could have ever imagined!

It was his death for our sins that provided a way to Heaven. He took our place, and sent us the Holy Spirit that we may be guided in all truth.

All you have to do is accept that you are imperfect, and accept his death on the cross as payment for sin. Ask the holy spirit to come into your life, and he will.