Does anyone else take issue with this?

Question

One of our users likes to use a phrase that I think requires some explanation, it go's like this: "Cows give us the gift of milk, butter and cheese, and chickens give us the gift of eggs."

I have a real issue with the word 'gift' here. This is no gift; you steal these things from the animals. I've never head of a cow walking up to a human with a glass of milk and saying in her best English "Here you go, enjoy my milk!" Or a chicken doing anything like that with her eggs. That cow that is giving this 'gift' is sacrificing milk meant for it's calf. She is kept continually pregnant to make sure her milk production does not cease. I'm sorry but I don't see how a non-consenting, enslaved, captive being can give anyone a gift. What do you think?

First of all I just wanted to take a moment and thank all of you that I have come to consider my colleges in educating the greater public on the issues at hand. You all know who you are. Even though some of us might disagree on some issues, things like this we will always stand firm on. We need to make the greater community's position on things like this known. So much confusion by the general public about what people like us stand for is the result of absurd augments like the one we are discussing here. Again thank you for standing up and giving your opinion.

Dear SmartAleck, No, of course the cows are not "kept pregnant" as in literally all the time. but as soon as they begin to stop lactating they are impregnated again. Your just wrong as a factual matter to say that a cow will lactate for a lifetime if their is demand. If this was the case there would be no need for a veal industry.

Dear Some Dude, the cows we are talking about are a domesticated, man made species. Your right to say that they would not exist if we did not use them. Cows should not exist in their captive form. They should be wild animals outside of the sphere of human influence as much as is possible.

Dear Buck S, I suggest you read yours. Animals were made before humans in the book of Genesis. There was no mention of eating animals until much later. This logically implies that animals were not put here for us, indeed if it implies anything it's that we are here to take care of them. Since I'm not a Christian you may want to find a Christian Vegan to discuss this with you as I really have no interest in the religious arguments for or against animal rights.

Dear reverseparanoia. The nature augment really doesn't fly here seeing as farming of animals in any respect is not natural. Besides this is not a symbiotic relationship we are talking about here. The cows get nothing out of the deal no matter how much we may want to skew the facts to make it seem so.

Dear Rani, See above.

Dear Beebs, This is not a matter of winding people up. You spread misinformation and your being called out on it. Again in your answer to this question you use language that misrepresents the true situation. This cow does not willingly give you anything. You take it. Are you really going to maintain anything different? Do you really expect us to believe that she walks up to you and moo's until you milk her? How can you claim she is not captive, does her living area have no bounds? Can she leave her farm? As far as your eggs go, talk to anyone who works at a sanctuary (or anyone who has kept any species of bird for that matter), even if the egg is unfertilized the hen will still act as if it is for at least a few days. By the time the hen knows it isn't it would be rotten and of no use to you.

Besides the above, the economics of keeping animals in the conditions you describe above are much less the favorable for the farmer. In fact, I've never heard of such an arrangement (not saying it couldn't happen, I just sincerely doubt it). You happen to know for a fact that these dairy cows are never slaughtered, and that their calf's are not sold into veal? The Chickens are not slaughtered when they stop laying, and the male chicks are not killed when born? These are standard farming practices, the realities of keeping such animals.
n addition, and I feel very strongly about this, please stop saying you live a Vegan lifestyle. The fact that you consume eggs, dairy and maybe even fish excludes you from claiming to live a Vegan lifestyle. The majority of us here are interested in promoting an easy place for new comers to gather useful information. By mislabeling yourself you further confuse those that are trying to learn.

Dear Meenou, If you applied the same thing to humans would you still find it unproblematic? If I was to say that taking the life of another human for food is ok sometimes as it keeps the balance do you have a problem with that? If so, your idea is either flawed, or admittedly speciesist.

Answer 1

I'm totally agreed. It's amazing to see so
many right-wingers on here trying to justify
the milking practice. They like to talk about
"free will" but strip that from other beings.
Also, I read someone's suggestion that cows
like being milked because they experience
pain otherwise. That makes no sense. If you
don't impregnate the cow through artificial
insemination it won't have any reason to
retain milk unless it calves through natural
means. Once the calf has used all the milk
necessary and it gets weened the cow naturally
goes back to its non-lactating state.

Obcourse dairy farmers will say that their
cows like being milked the same way they
say that " milk does the body good".
I don't think I would want a stranger tugging
at my breast all day. Also, how is this claim
that cows need to be relieved of their milk
because the calf can't use it all logical?
If that's the case then how did the cow race
survive for millions of years before somebody
got the notion of milikng them?

Answer 2

Those things are not gifts, they are just natural things that happen under circumstance that can be used as food. I can understand a poor man calling them a gift if he is starving sort of in the same respect people call babies a gift. I think that if someone has their own chickens that are treated very well and are considered pets, the eggs are a bonus..not a gift.

I do have more of an issue with milk.

A cow can't make milk unless she is pregnant or just had a baby. So, farmers force cows to be pregnant almost all year, every year! Imagine how tired a cow gets after just a couple years of that!

Milk is meant to be food for baby cows, but most dairy farms take calves away from their mothers immediately after they are born and then force the mothers to produce 10 times more milk than they would produce naturally for their babies.

I admit, I do use milk very minimally but I am rethinking that choice.
As far as eggs go, they will be laid no matter what and I do get them from someone local that has 4 star accommodations for her chickens.

Answer 3

I have a point to make that nobody has made ...let me know what you think. I am a vegetarian and I don;t drink milk (although there are often some in cookies and cakes that come accross). I hate the bovine industry and only eat cage free vegetarian hen eggs. BUT, if we were were not 6 billion people on this earth, exterminating all its resources and forming these horrible meat/dairy industries...eating meat/egg is done by many species in nature, some carnivores, some omnivores...and they are taking this from the other species without their concent...and it is not a bad thing, it is balance and survival.

Answer 4

Matt , I take issue with it also .. and with lack of knowledge people have regarding cows milk,chickens eggs etc..I do wish people would at least make an attempt to educate themselves before answering ..yes cows have to be 1)pregnant 2) nursing their calf 3) forced into false production by continued pumping once the calf has weaned ...People tend to forget that we are the ONLY species that drinks the milk of another animal intended for it's young and the ONLY species that drinks milk at all after weaning ..and then they wonder what causes osteoporosis ... I wholeheartedly agree with you and those phrases annoy me ... I am trying to have tolerance but sometimes it is hard..

Answer 5

I agree and that's why I went vegan. I felt a bit like a thief stealing from my best buddies!! Animals are a gift themselves, they are most loving and non judgmental friends ever. My cats never say "hey Andie, your bottom looks big in that!!"
They should all be treat as kings and queens. I got upset the other day when I watched a TV article about people keeping pigs as pets allegedly. Pigs are sweet and clever and If I had room here I'd have a pet pig. Anyway they abused the meaning of the word pet - they were breding them and taking them to their "friendly local butcher" but their kids were brainwashed even . I blubbed like the big girls blouse that I am but I just thought how cruel can you get !!

Answer 6

Well put, Matt. You're so right - if we think it's wrong to kill an animal to eat it, the natural & logical extension of that argument is that it's wrong to exploit animals for their milk/eggs/honey etc.

I wouldn't dare call myself a vegan although I would love to do so. I'm making the switch and reading your question just makes me more resolved to do so.

Good on yer!

Answer 7

I can't imagine any cow being happy someone is taking her breast milk, or any chicken being happy that someone is taking her attempts at reproduction. I know I would be unhappy if someone was taking my *precious gifts.*
:)

Someone mentioned give and take... what exactly do we *give* to these animals. (To give an analogy:) It is similar to how we we *received* the precious gift of the Native Americans' land, while accepting the gifts of unwanted sex and deaths from them, and then in return, gave the precious gift of undersized reservations and land completely unable to produce crops.

I deeply believe vegetarianism is a great and honorable thing (which may be where we differ), and I also believe it is a great step on the path to veganism; however, I believe it is important to not kid ourselves. The best conditions we could give an animal is nothing compared to all we have taken from them.

Many people like to think cows would die if we didn't milk them... I think cows, like every other species on the planet, would be able to handle their breast milk appropriately without our help.

Answer 8

I'm having a busy day so pardon me for using an applicable cut'n'paste from a recent answer as an answer to this one. I'll throw more in when I've got the time.

Snip:

BTW; That person you slammed is well known amongst Answers users as a nut. She comes to the vegetarian section claiming to be vegan with a pet cow that gladly gives her milk to drink (Vegans don't have *anything* to do with animals). She also has claimed to be a vegetarian that eats fish but she told Polls&Surveys that she's allergic to fish. She's allergic to peanuts but in Food>General says she ruined a pot making peanut brittle. She's married with two sons but is also a single mother raising a vegan girl. She lives in FL, GA, NC and everywhere else you can imagine. No matter what ails you she claims it's caused by allergies and the cure is to drink raw milk!! Get the picture

Snip:

Edit:

Here's some fun links about raw milk.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_5497717?source=rss
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html
http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/cheesespotlight/cheese_spotlight.htm
http://www.megnut.com/2006/09/raw-milk-risks
http://www.fda.gov/oc/po/firmrecalls/snyder12_06.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14961688/

Considering some of her answers in other sections Beebs would be most interested in this little snippet from the FDA about consumption of raw milk

Snip:

In pregnant women, Listeria monocytogenes-caused illness can result in miscarriage, fetal death, or illness or death of a newborn infant.

Snip:

I'm tired of seeing this Weston Price junk about raw milk being a healthy 'gift'! We've all seen news reports about women being charged with child abuse for smoking/drinking whilst pregnant. *ANY* mother (or father for that matter) that gives raw milk to a child should be charged with child abuse also!
A mother that drinks raw milk and mis-carries should be jailed just like we already do to mothers that lose a child from smoking crack!

These two fresh links might help explain why she always has a new 'story' to tell:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/02-05-2007/0004519826
http://www.medindia.net/news/view_news_main.asp?x=17556

Edit:

Matt; I recall you once saying that you felt you were the most hated participant in the Food>V&V section...

You certainly aren't anymore!!

Answer 9

Certainly in our factory farm situations this is definitely the case. All animals kept in these ways are horribly abused.

But it is possible for a family cow or goat to be kept very nicely and lovingly-- cared for much better than they would be in nature-- And most breeds do produce more milk than the calf should drink. Also, after the calf is eating grass, if the cow is milked (by hand, preferably) the milk continues for quite a while.
I know many vegans consider this, keeping bees, etc. as abuse and slavery-- I can appreciate their line of thinking. But I see it more like everyone in a family has a "job" or contribution to make-- the service is reciprocal. We care for the animals with love (not sending them off to be slaughtered, even after they can no longer 'produce') and they contribute to the family in their way---The dog barks at trespassers, the cat kills rodents, the cow produces an abundance of milk, the bees "pay' for their protection from animals and ants and other honey thieves (many of whom will kill the entire colony) with a percentage of their honey.
Ideally, we work for the animals--- feeding them, getting them medical care when sick, protecting them from other animals and humans who might harm them, loving them--- and they help us out in return.
Again, I know this is absolutely the opposite of how things are in most cases--- but it IS how we treat our animals!
That's what I think--

Answer 10

I agree with everything you said, also it's nice to see someone really stick up for what they are saying, to make sure that no one twists around words, or misinterprets anything.