Jehovah's Witnesses - If the Word (Jesus) is a created being...?

Question

How come the writer of Hebrews, employing Melchizedek as a type of Christ, refers to him as being "..without father, without mother, without genealogy, HAVING NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS NOR END OF LIFE, but MADE LIKE THE SON OF GOD, remains a priest continually." Hebrews 7:3 (caps for emphasis). Why would the writer use such a phrase as "having neither beginning of days" in reference to a type of Jesus ? If Jesus was created, wouldn't this be misleading ?

PS I'm familiar with WT theology. No long - winded arguments on John 1:1, etc. I would like you to address this particular passage, please.

Thanks in advance for all replies.

Linedancer -

Thanks for your reply.

What do you have to say in regard to Jesus having "neither beginning of days" as well as an indestructible life ?

Sasi -
A very good answer. You particularly make a good point re how JW's avoid addressing the part of the passage which refers to him not having beginning of days. Actung Heiss has done pretty much the same thing. All the emphasis is on the unending priesthood. Granted, the chapter primarily concerns Christ's unending priesthood, but why the avoidance of what is written in v.3 ?
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and is coming, the Almighty. Rev. 1:8 (NWT). Who is speaking here ?
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Rev. 22:13 (NWT). Who is speaking here ?

LineDancer -
What do you have to say re Sasi's comments on John 5:26 ?

Tienna -
Re Proverbs 8:24 -
Where does it mention Jesus ? There is no evidence that this refers to the Lord.

Jacquie (New System Lady) -
You say that Christ was preceded by no high priest similar to Himself. That's not true. Hebrews says of Jesus, "You are a high priest forever ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK" (Hebrews 7:17 AND 21, caps for emphasis).

Jacquie - In what sense did Christ not have beginning of days ? The scripture clearly gives His genealogy, according to His humanity (Luke 3:23 - 38). So when the writer refers to the Lord not having beginning of days, in what sense DOES he mean ?
The answer is that Jesus the man had a beginning, as the scripture shows. The Word did not, hence "not having beginning of days", otherwise, it would contradict the gospel account. It's very simple.

Jacquie -

Regarding Colossians 1:15 - 17:
The Greek word translated "firstborn" is "prototokos", this can mean "first in rank". If the writer of Colossians had intended to convey that Jesus was created, he could have used a more specific term, "protoktistos", which means "first created". "Prototokos" is also translated "firstborn" in regard to Jesus in Romans 8:29. Jesus is described as being "firstborn" among many brethren, referring to His pre eminence among those who will be resurrected from the dead.
If anyone is guilty of trying to make scripture fit their theology, it's the Watchtower, Jacquie. Hence the insertion of the term "other" following "all" in vv. 16 & 17 of Colossians 1 in the NWT. This is only one example of WT theological bias. How does the passage read without the WT insertion and what does it say about Jesus, Jacquie ? Compare with Romans 11:36...

Jacquie, thanks for your edit. Here is my response -

Why is Jesus and not the Father or the Holy Spirit mentioned as the "first in rank" of all creation ? Only Jesus will reign VISIBLY over God's creation. Jesus' parousia will be visible as opposed to the invisible parousia erroneously taught by the WT, in blatant contradiction to such clear scriptures as Revelation 1:7, Acts 1:11. That's another argument. The Father has set His Son - who is the visible representation of the invisible God - to rule, to be "first in rank" over creation. Does this indicate that the Word is less than deity ? I hope that my following comments shall serve to dispel that idea...

Incidentally, you appear to have avoided commenting on why the NWT of Colossians 1:16 & 17 has inserted the word "other" where it was not in the original Greek text. Is that move by the WT translator's not an indication of trying to make the scripture fit their preconceived ideas ? Why did they not leave the text as it was ?

John 17:3 -
No mention of the Holy Spirit. But what about John 16 ? Jesus mentions both the Father & the Holy Spirit there. In John 14:16, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "another helper" (NWT). Is it not true, Jacquie, that the Greek term rendered "another" means "another of the same kind" ?
In addition, Matthew 28:19 makes mention of baptizing disciples in the name (SINGULAR) "..of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit" (NWT). The Greek term translated "name" can mean authority or CHARACTER.
Does the Holy Spirit have personality, or is the Holy Spirit just an impersonal, active force (like electricity or radio waves) as the WT teach ?
Ephesians 4:30 says, "Also do not be GRIEVING God's holy spirit.." (NWT, emphasis mine) - the Holy Spirit can feel emotion.
Acts 13:2 is VERY interesting - "..the holy spirit said: "Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart FOR ME for the work to which I have called them." (NWT, emphasis mine). How can you dismiss these scriptures ?

John 1:18 -
"No man has seen God at any time.."
This is another one which I have already explained to you in our previous correspondence, but for the benefit of others -
The Greek "horao" which is translated "seen" is defined as follows by Strongs - "properly, to stare at, i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed."
John 1:18 continues to show that Jesus is the one who has revealed God.
When John 1:18 says that no man has seen God at any time, does it mean that Yahweh has never been seen in some form ? Not so. Genesis 18 makes it very clear that Yahweh appeared in human form to Abraham by the terebinth trees of Mamre, He even ate with him! So, the "seen" in John 1:18 refers to more than a mere visual experience. As John 1:18 shows, it was Jesus who revealed who God is on a level far beyond the visual. Through His presence on earth among men..

...Jesus - who is God incarnate - (John 1:14) made God's "..name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world." (John 17:6, NWT). Was it the title of God that Jesus revealed to (in particular) 12 Jews ? They already knew God's name in that sense. No, it was His CHARACTER. How did Jesus do that ? Simply by being among them. God in the flesh.

Matthew 24:36 -
Admittedly, a difficult passage for those who believe in Christ's deity, and I shan't attempt to hide that. However, as you yourself have pointed out, it takes more than just a single scripture on which to base a doctrine (or to refute one, for that matter). There are a number of scriptures which JW's are unable to satisfactorily address, including why Jesus is said to not have "beginning of days". A scripture which, for all your other input Jacquie, you don't appear to have addressed.

John 14:28 -
The Watchtower often disregard context of scripture passages when seeking to justify their own erroneous teachings. Sometimes, they just blatantly ignore the original Greek text, as is the case with 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which, speaking of the gathering to Christ of both the living & dead believers says that they shall be gathered together LITERALLY "at the same time" in the original language. However, the WT choose to ignore this and continue to teach that this passage refers to the GRADUAL gathering to Christ of the much - feted 144,000 "anointed class" - another WT false teaching. There are many examples of disregard of context in order to support WT doctrine, but time & space does not permit. Feel free to look at my past questions.
So, John 14:28 - quite simple, really. The CONTEXT is the Lord speaking about His impending return to His former glorious estate in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18, 17:5) following His time of humiliation in the flesh on the sinful...

..earth. He says in verse 28 that if the disciples loved Him, they would rejoice at His return to the Father, because the Father is greater than He. Jesus is speaking as God incarnate, in the form of a servant (Philippians 2:7 & 8), before His return to His former glorious position with the Father in Heaven. Hence, at the time of speaking, the Father was greater than He.
If Jesus is merely a created being, would it be right for Him to be worshipped as God ?
Throughout the scripture, it is clearly taught that only God is to be worshipped, so what about John 5:23 ? It says that the Son is to be honoured just as the Father is honoured. The Greek translated "honor" is "timao" which means "to prize". How can one prize a created being just as they prize God without being guilty of idolatry ? Note that verse 23 says that whoever "..does not honor the Son (in the same way as the Father, as the text clearly implies) DOES NOT HONOR THE FATHER WHO SENT HIM." (emphasis mine). JW's, who claim..

..to be Jehovah's true people, are, by refusing to prize (including worship) the Son as the Father, actually disobeying God's will and DIShonouring Him in the process. Can JW's prize Christ as required by the word of God, while still believing He is a created being ? Well if they did, then they would in their own minds be guilty of worshipping the creature rather than the creator. Either way, they are in error...

Finally -
Yahweh applies to Himself the UNIQUE term, "the First & Last" in Isaiah 44:6.
So does Jesus in Revelation 22:13.
Do you suggest that there is another "First & Last" apart from God ?
You are correct Jacquie when you say that humility means humbly accepting the truth of scripture & changing your own ideas.
Will you ?
In sincerity, Carl.

PS Thanks to Ishvarlan, a JW who has integrity enough to star a question which challenges his JW beliefs as interesting. A refreshing change from the usual unquestioning JW mentality.
Thanks to all who answered.

Answer 1

The 15 August 2001 "Watchtower" mag had 3 main study articles on Abraham. The only mention of Melchizedek was on p24 where Gen. 14:18-20 was quoted, followed by the sentence, "Yes, to Jehovah belonged the victory." Hebrews was quoted 7 times, but not ch7 vs3.

In the JW book "Insight on the Scriptures" Vol 2, p366-7 Melchizedek is said to be "a suitable type of the great High Priest Jesus Christ.-(Heb 7:4-10)" Ch7 vs 3 is then quoted. The only mention of Melchizedek not having a recorded genealogy is to show that "Thus, Melchizedek could fittingly foreshadow Jesus Christ, who has an unending priesthood... so too Christ was preceded by no high priest similar to himself, and the Bible shows that none will ever succeed him." All comment is about him (and his priesthood) having no end. Absence of comment about Jesus having no beginning is curious but no doubt is due to the Wt Soc saying Christ was created originally as an angel and therefore had a beginning.

A note re. the JW using John 5:26 - God granting the Son to have life in himself - the context is the resurrection and Christ's role as Judge, not the pre-human existence of Christ. Interestingly, although scripture refers to God raising Christ from the dead, Christ said, "I lay down my life - only to take it up again... I have authority to take it up again" (Jn 10:14-18). The NIV footnote says "The Son has been given the same kind of life that the Father possesses." Again, it's vital to stress this is said in the context of what is to happen after Christ dies physically.

Most Bible commentaries take reference to Melchizedek's lack of genealogy as proof of the eternal existence of Christ. Unsurprisingly, the JW take on that is very different! But because Wt leaders emphasise the unENDing aspect, and seem to avoid the lack of beginnings involved, your question is valid and shows the need for JWs to face squarely up to this fascinating revelation of scripture.

Answer 2

i'm no longer being impolite, yet i do no longer see what your factor is. So a similar be conscious grow to be utilized in Psalm ninety:2 and ninety 3:2 that grow to be utilized in Micah 5:2. All which skill is that Jesus is an eternal spirit, like his Father Jehovah. yet once you will see in Psalm ninety:2 it says God (Jehovah is eternal to eternal) which skill He would not have a initiating or and end. Colossians a million:15-20 needless to say states that Jehovah used Jesus to create all issues. It additionally calls Jesus the firstborn of all creation. If some thing is born then some thing else ought to have had to create it, no? (analyze w/ 1Corinthians 8:5,6). additionally, please examine John 14:28, 20:17, 8:17,28, Acts 7:fifty 5,fifty six, Mark 13:32, 1Corinthians 11:3, 1Peter a million:3. ***EDIT*** @ Islami- you gave an incredible answer. @ "Chrsitians 4 Jews"- Jesus isn't God (please see the scriptures indexed above). the reason Jesus' sacrifice washes away our sins is using fact Jesus grow to be a suited guy, only as Adam grow to be interior the initiating. That grow to be ALL that grow to be required, no longer God Himself sacrificing His life. examine Romans 5:19 ****EDIT 2**** you're only right suited. Jehovah gave Jesus authority and made him larger than the angels. yet how does that practice that Jesus isn't a spirit? back, i'm lost on your reasoning.

Answer 3

He is like Melchizedek, who was both a king and a priest. Also the genealogy of Melchizedek is unknown. Of course this does not mean that he did not have one. In the case of Jesus there is ample evidence that he did have a beginning.
Proverbs 8:22"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; (NIV)
Collosians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:(KJV)
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;(KJV)

Answer 4

Thank you Carl for allowing Jehovah's Witnesses to answer this question.

Paul isolated an outstanding fact respecting Melchizedek, in saying of him: “In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.” (Hebrews 7:3)
Like other humans, Melchizedek was born and he died. However, the names of his father and mother are not furnished, his ancestry and posterity are not disclosed, and the Scriptures contain no information about the beginning of his days or the end of his life.
Thus, Melchizedek could fittingly foreshadow Jesus Christ, who has an unending priesthood. As Melchizedek had no recorded predecessor or successor in his priesthood, so too Christ was preceded by no high priest similar to himself, and the Bible shows that none will ever succeed him. Furthermore, although Jesus was born in the tribe of Judah and in the kingly line of David, his fleshly ancestry had no bearing on his priesthood, nor was it by virtue of human ancestry that the offices of both priest and king were combined in him. These things were as a result of Jehovah’s own oath to him.

The fact remains that Melchizedek’s nationality, genealogy, and offspring are left undisclosed in the Scriptures, and that with good reason, for he could thus typify Jesus Christ, who by Jehovah’s sworn oath “has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.”
Hebrews 6:20.

You seem to have taken this one scripture as your "proof" that Jesus didn't have a beginning but this scripture doesn't prove anything of the kind.
What a searcher of the truth needs to do is instead of taking a scripture out of context to back-up beliefs, all other scriptures must be taken into consideration.
To make an informed decision on what is truth, ALL other scriptures must be examined with an open mind & not preconceived ideas.
For example - 1 Colossians 1:15-17 clearly shows that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation. This scripture cannot be dismissed just because it doesn't fit in with what you believe.
Jesus clearly had a beginning whereas Jehovah is omnipotent.
Two separate personalities
-------------------------------------------

Edit in response to your response to my answer --

Trinitarians say that “first-born” (in Colossians 1:15-17) means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created.
If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation?
But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons.

Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group.
“The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel;
“the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family;
“the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals.

Also, Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus the beginning of God's creation - are you going to dismiss this scripture too?

Of course, you have to compare these scriptures with others in the Bible to get the full understanding.
There are many scriptures that show that Jesus cannot be God himself. A few are:-
John 17:3 - Two personalities (no mention of the holy spirit)
John 1:18 - No man has seen God AT ANY TIME
Matthew 24:36-39 - The Father knew something that Jesus didn't (how can he be God?)
John 14:28 - If they are co-equal as you say - why does this say that the Father is greater than the Son?


What you're doing here Carl is holding fast to a preconceived idea or belief & then trying to make the scripture fit into what you believe.
That's what humility means - humbly accepting the truth of the scripture & changing your ideas.

:)

Answer 5

Proverbs 8:24, reveals that Jesus was brought forth as with labor pains, at the time the earth had no oceans.

So, Melchizedek and Jesus do not have dated, "recorded" beginnings for us, and no doubt Melchizedek died, as all Adam's children are imperfect, but the date is not recorded, and in God's eyes, both were foreknown to be faithful, therefore, both will be immortal priest and kings forever.. This shows that many of the 144,000 were prophets chosen before Jesus came to earth. Even death cannot stop this from coming true.

The only other explanation is that Melchizedek was from times pre-Adam, a perfect man, one of many of Satan's prisoners, Isaiah 14:17, tried and true, taken from the earth, before the first flood, and was a materialized angel, who served on the earth for a while in Abraham's day. John12:28.

When the Bible uses 'of old' it is referring to the first Paradise. Very long ago, not Noah's time.

Do not forget hospitality, through which, some unknown to themselves have entertained angels. (Hebrews 13:2)

The ones who died in the first flood, Genesis 1:2, as imperfect humans, are those who are spoken of here; 'and the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.' Rev. 20:5. 2Peter:3:5,6..Proverbs 8:27b...

Jesus and the 144,000 will all have indestructible life, as immortal spirits, with the ability to also materialize and be the new heavens or government over the earth,..Isaiah 65:15, Daniel 2:44, 2Peter 3:13, Rev.5:9,10, 22:5b, 14:3, 1Cor.15:42-57,..

Jesus said; ......'In the RE-CREATION when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28

Answer 6

Paul shows the superiority of Christ’s priesthood and of the new covenant. (4:14–10:31) The sinless Jesus Christ has compassion for sinful humans because, like us, he has been tested in all respects. Moreover, God has appointed him “a priest forever according to the manner of Melchizedek.” Unlike Levitical high priests, Jesus possesses an indestructible life and thus needs no successors in his saving work. He does not have to offer up animal sacrifices, for he has offered up his greatly superior sinless body and has entered heaven with the value of his blood.

Jesus did not exist before time. He had a beginning. He was given life by his Father. At John 5:26, Jesus said: "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself." Does this sound like someone who has existed before time? No. As the Father's true Son, Jesus was given life by his Father. He has a beginning.

Answer 7

Perhaps I am mistaken, but doesn't this refer to the fact that we do not know who his parents were? My understanding of it is that the beginning of the passage was stating that no one knew who birthed Melchizedek (remember geneology was important to them). The second part, where it starts "made like the Son...", was comparing his being of humble birth and eventual servitude to God like that of Jesus.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe like the Jehovah's Witnesses, that Jesus is a created being, but I think the verse you provided would be out of context with the point you are making. But don't go by me, I'm not a theologian :)

Answer 8

That passage discusses Melchizedek's commission as Jehovah's priest (and king), and Christ's commission as Jehovah's priest (and king).

(Hebrews 7:1,3) Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God... In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.


Like Melchizedek, the kingship and priesthood of Jesus are entirely unrelated to some genetic birthright, but are divinely granted based on the character and proven faithfulness of the appointed agent.

Answer 9

The theological discourse follows the predefined path:

We all existed before we came to earth. Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of the Father - the rest of us have spirits which reside in tabernacles of flesh.

Since Jesus Christ existed before time, so did we, but in spirit form.

"He (Jesus Christ) volunteered and was chosen, sustained (by us, His spirit brothers and sisters), and foreordained in the premortal existence to be the Saviour of the world".

The other candidate was a chap called Lucifer, and we all know what became of him!

Jesus Christ remains a priesthood holder eternally - I am alpha and omega - men on the other hand must be ordained, then hold priesthood for eternity.

The only way Jesus Christ can be considered to have been created is in the fact that He was born of the Virgin Mary.

Answer 10

Since the JW's cannot ever point to a time when Jesus was not in existence and passages of scripture point to his eternality, they are creating falshood by saying that there was a time when Jesus was not in existence and assuming that he was a created being when several passages of scripture point to his eternality as the one you presented does.