A question about BYB's?

Question

I have been speaking to sassy off list (the one who "breeds" pitty's and had the female that she did not seek vet care for 24 hours for). I was wondering how you guys feel, because I don not agree with it, about someone who has four litters at the same time?

I agree with you 100% Kerstone Shep. a quality breeder could handle four litters, but I still feel that you cannot recognize common problems, properly socialize, and screen homes for that many puppies, especially because she does NOT do her health tests or screen homes. One of her females had nine puppies and the mother was having labor problems and she waited 24 hours and ask on here what was wrong with her before she called the vet. I just think it is discussing.

Just so you know, I was not interested in purchasing one of her puppies. I much prefer the Shibas (I should because I show and breed them), but I had some concerns about her breeding practices. My best friend breed's champion ASST and I much prefer her health checked, outgoing pity’s over sassy’s non registered ones.

Answer 1

4 litters at one time??? She breeds and doesn't even get adequate care for the animals? That is beyond just BYB - that's a puppy mill!!! That just makes me sick!!!!!!!!!!!

Kerstone - I get what you are saying but she wasn't even caring for the animals properly. Experienced breeders can handle it yes but they also would know to have any dog taken care of the moment they needed to be seen. BYB's and puppy mills can breed only one type of breed as well but they don't properly care for the animals because all they care about is the money. True breeders care about the animals and do whatever it take to take care of them right. Just my opinion.

Answer 2

Jeez, I must be WUSS because I am lucky to have enough emotional energy to devote to ONE litter per year.


I would call that a PUPPY MILL....not a BYB. That really borders on a mill. Sad. They just want to keep the bucks ROLLING in!!!


If there are no health clearances, not much in the way of vet care, standards out the window, and MANY litters per year....I call it a MILL. A mill does NOT mean they have to be in wire cages and filthy conditions. It means they are MASS producing puppies for profit. A BYB just breeds their pets for profit, but not a MASS level.
I am sick of people only thinking that a mill has to have wire cages and filthy conditions!!!!!

A "commercial" breeder is someone that sells specifically to supply the pet stores. Usually USDA licensed. CAN also be a puppy mill. There is VERY little distinction between the 2. Most BYB do not sell to pet stores. Some do, but most pet stores get theirs from mills/commercial breeders!!

I totally feel this person, if breeding at that rate, and with no care for health and vet care, IS a puppy mill. Not a commercial breeder, but beyond a BYB.

Good care, or not, filthy conditions or not, that is not what makes a puppy mill. The guy with 300 cages of dogs in the woods WOULD be a PM, maybe NOT a CB. But NOT a BYB. There is someone here in upstate NY that clearly IS a PM. TONS of dogs. MANY breeds. Litters all the time. Most bit ches bred every heat. HOWEVER, her place is pretty darn clean. They can only site her at this point for too many dogs in her zoning area. So because she is not filthy and keeps them in gross conditions, is she only a BYB??? No, she is a PM, and she is probably a CB too.

Answer 3

Some GOOD and reputable breeders can handle 4 litters at once. I dont know who "sassy" is.... But as long as the person breeds ONE breed, knows a lot about the breed, has the proper health checks done on their dogs, does not sell to brokers and pet stores, and their dogs meet the breed standard. I would not consider them a backyard breeder. I know of a few EXCELLENT breeders of champion White Shepherds who OCCASIONALLY have several litters at once. They are very knowledgable and responsible and they have excellent kennel set ups. NOT cages like puppy mills. Real kennels with room for the dogs and pups to run and excellent high quality facilities for raising happy healthy puppies. And even if these breeders happen to have 4 litters at once (which is sometimes once or twice a year... other times they may have no pups at all)... These breeders will carefully interview each buyer and place all of these pups in caring responsible homes - they won't just sell them to anybody (especially not brokers and pet shops). These good breeders do not make money off of their puppies... They are always spending money on health care for the dogs & pups, health certifications for the parents, entry fees for dog shows, training, and so on. Good breeders don't make money.

A backyard breeder is someone who breeds dogs for money. They don't know (or care) about health problems that run in the lines, they don't have their "breeding stock" health checked, they sell puppies to anyone willing to give up the money, and their dogs are not good examples of the breed. Often, they may breed several different breeds. That is a BYB in my opinion - regardless of whether they have 1 litter or 10. So if who you are talking about fits this description, then yes... I would consider it a BYB. :o(

Simply because someone has 4 litters at once does not make them a BYB. Feel free to contact me privately if you want! :o)

Answer 4

Backyard breeders are the scum of the earth. People who are churning out puppies because they have Fido and Fluffy and can make money from the pups are nausating.

I have no problem with responsible breeders - those who do the necessary testing, health checks, etc. Those who are looking to better the breed and who are involved in improving the breed. Those who can tell you why they bred this b*tch to that stud (and the answer isn't "because that's what I could afford" or "because that's the dogs I had"). Those who are as discriminating in the homes they adopt out to as they are in the breeding they're doing.

But those folks who sell dogs on the side of the road because they can get $200 a pup from gullible idiots really p*ss me off.

Answer 5

She sounds like a backyard breeder or puppy mill - would you trust that someone that has 4 litters at the same time & avoids going to the vet has done the proper health screening (hips, eyes, etc) on the parent dogs, or even cares or KNOWS what genetic problems she should screen her breed from before breeding? Scary!

I reccomend you go to www.akc.org, find your closest chapter of the American Staffordshire Terrier Club, and buy from a club member that has the proper knowledge, and has certified their dogs with the OFA , CERF, etc. Or www.ukcdogs.com for American Pit Bill Terriers - same breed, called different names by these 2 reputable registries.

Answer 6

To me, it really depends on the person breeding. If the breeder does it 'right', meaning health testing and at least some attention to the standard, I don't have a problem with it. If good home breeders bred more, there would be less market for commercial breeders and mills and I think its better a small time pet breeder who loves her dogs than some guy hiding in the woods whose dogs receive little care. People will get PB puppies somewhere, and if not from a conscientious pet breeder, they will get one from somewhere else. Show breeders breed less than 5% of all AKC registrations (not even taking in to account CKC, APRI, etc) and there is no way they can supply the country with pet puppies. Look at the underage, smuggled, sickly, Mexican puppies being smuggled into California after the anti-breeding laws have stopped much of the breeding. Is it better that people get a 5 week old pup from a country that doesn't enforce abuse/neglect laws?

This is not to comment on Sassy in particular, as I don't know about her. As far as the Vet care, it depends on the situation. People here think a dog should go to the Vet for greenish stuff on a dogs penis, or for a bleeding nail quick, which is just plain stupid.

To the other posters - This is not a puppy mill, unless she keeps them in small cages and filth, and doesn't give them basic care. You can't label someone a puppy mill just because they don't do things the way *YOU* think they should!!!!

Kerstone said - "as long as the person breeds ONE breed"

But I know reputable show breeders who have 2 and even 3. That is why one size fits all rules do not work, there are often exceptions to the rule.

LovemyLab - " she wasn't even caring for the animals properly." How do you know this, we weren't told what the problem was. Read my comments above. Am I a puppy mill because I don't run to the Vet when my dog has a minor injury like a nail injury or because she has a soft tissue injury? I am fully capable of dealing with minor stuff myself, and I think the fact that I don't run to the Vet for every little thing makes me a mill! That said, I do not know any particulars about this instance, I just didn't like the blanket statement.



"One of her females had nine puppies and the mother was having labor problems and she waited 24 hours"

Oh, well I guess the jury is in on Sassy. Ain't lookin good.


Torbay - I would call it a commercial breeder. I don't like to throw AR buzzwords like puppy mill around just because someone doesn't do things the way *I* think they should. To use a broad brush like that just helps the ARs divide and conquer, when we need to be coming together.

"A "commercial" breeder is someone that sells specifically to supply the pet stores. Usually USDA licensed"

You are right, and this woman probably doesn't sell to pet stores. Surely not USDA.

"There is VERY little distinction between the 2."

Between commercial and puppy mill? I must disagree. Puppy mills are commercial, but I don't agree that all CBs are puppy mills. Some of them are clean and well kept, and the dogs do get Vet care as well as *some* attention. Substandard quality puppies, to be sure, but many, many people buy CB dogs and are happy with them.

I certainly wouldn't put all CBs and BYBs in the same catagory (although some would definately fit) as the guy in the woods with 300 dogs in little cages, fed crap, with no Vet care and little human contact.


Well, *I* don't like it either! But WHAT can be done??? Pass PAWS with number limits that will surely be dropped after a year or two? Some other anti-breeding law like mandatory S/N that will have good breeders hiding out with their dogs like criminals?

I am not a big fan of crappy breeders, but I still say, better a BYB or a CB than the puppy smuggling operations in a country with no abuse/neglect laws!


"Good care, or not, filthy conditions or not, that is not what makes a puppy mill"

I don't agree. I do respect you however, so we can just agree to disagree on this topic, I agree with pretty much everything else you say.

Answer 7

"4 litters at one time".... I think its fair to say they are a puppy peddler, especially if its an apbt. I grew up with apbt's an just got back into the dogs 5 years ago. I do ADBA Conformation shows as well as do a little weight pulling an I had my 1st litter born on Thanksgiving Day.
4 litters on the ground at the same time = being in it for the $$$$.