Why are their so many Vegetarian apologists?

Question

Whenever another vegetarian or Vegan says anything the lest bit controversial such as meat eating is immoral, how can you stand to eat meat, or god forbid, I support the ALF, Some Vegetarian apologist is ready and waiting to right that person off for stating their beliefs.
Are some of you that insecure in the direction of our movement, if you can even call it a movement, that you feel the need to cater to the sensibilities of the masses and not offend anyone? I mean no one any disrespect, meat eater or vegetarian, but to discuss this issue means that some meat eaters and vegetarians might get their feathers ruffled a bit. Disagreements in ideology or tactics are fine, hell even desired. However, to have some Vegetarian apologist undermining others is frankly really annoying. Thoughts?

I think some of you are missing the point. I'm not talking about how militant someone is about the cause and whether you agree or disagree with that. You’re welcomed to hold and state whatever your feelings are on that subject. What I'm talking about is the people who marginalize others in their same group for having views that are more radical, or less, than their own. People who try and create the illision that the entire Vegetarian and Vegan movement is against this persons ideas instead if disagreeing with it yourself. That’s what I'm talking about.

@ greenghost: I have no idea what provoked that rant of yours. I'll say two things and you can take them how you wish:

1. I'm not sure were you get your ideas about what the Animal Rights movement is about, but whether you like it or not, animal rights is a part of it. not just promoting a diet that causes less suffering.

2. No social justice movement in history has ever succeeded without a radical element. Ever. I intentionally try to stir up the pot about the ALF and groups like them because I believe Americans and most of the western world are afraid to be labeled as extreme, or support ideas viewed by many to be extreme. This is dangerous. The voice of moderation is important, but moderation is not a voice people hear. Moderation does not get things done, it keeps a balance. An important job to be sure, but it does not do the real work. It does not get people to open their eyes.

@ GreenGhost:

"Matt, my 'rant' is because you have a history here of claiming that those groups are pro-vegetarian and help spread the word about the benefits of vegetarianism! "
 
-First of all who are "these groups?" I only mentioned one, the ALF, and I was not specifically talking about their contribution or lack thereof to the movement. I only mentioned them as a group that people feel the need to make excuses for wheather they support them or not.
 
"They do nothing of the sort and *hurt* the reputation of real organizations that understand that a positive message and positive actions are the way to sway general public opinion to our side!"
 
- Which organizations are we talking about here?
 
 "Alf is a terror group plain and simple!"
 
- That's your opinion, and your entitled to it. I don't desire to go off track and talk about the inaccuracies of labeling the ALF a terrorist group in this question.
 

"At a bare minimum they have killed one person,"
 
- No they haven't. Your grouping organizations that have no ties to each other. The federal government does not even claim the ALF has killed anyone.
 
 "...injured several others and killed hundreds of animals through their campaign of arson..."
 
- While I don't particularly agree with the tactic of arson in every case, every possible precaution is taken to make sure no animals are harmed when a building is burned down. Obviously this is imposable as spiders or mice, rats, or other creatures living in the building that were not captives could very well be injured. This is a problem, I agree.
 
 ..bombings and targeted assassination!"
 
- The "bombing was a lit Molotov cocktail sat on someone's back porch, without being thrown at someone or something, this is about a dangerous as a lit tiki torch. Hardly a bombing. Again, they have never killed anyone, there has been no assignation.
 

"Thanks to alf's record being blamed as veggie extremism you will find that it's extremely difficult for scientists that happen to be veggie to be allowed anywhere near a lab."
 
- What would any self respecting Vegetarian or Vegan scientist be doing in a lab experimenting on animals anyways?
 
"Vegginess is now considered a security risk! Media doesn't just say alf blew up a research lab, they say things like "Vegetarian animal rights protesters bombed a facility that was working on a cure for the terrible human scourge of Lupus"."
 
- The media distorts many things, We should work with them to any extent possible to make sure actions are reported properly. Indeed the ALF use to do this, but has quit for some reason. It needs to be a priority again.
 

"I (and other veggies in the region) caught a lot of flak when peta refused to help feed snowbound cattle in Colorado! Veggies in this region caught a LOT of flak over that since *most* Americans automatically think peta (who won't support no-kill animal shelters) represents the mind set of ANYONE that supports veggies or animal welfare!"
 
- I'm no PETA supporter, However why should PETA waste their money to help feed cattle that will end up slaughtered anyways and help line the farmers pockets? I'm glad they did not help them. The farmers need to take responsibility for their own inaction. They knew the storm was coming. Those animals were going to die anyways, whether PETA helped or not.
 
 
"You claim that no social justice movement ever succeeded with a violent fringe element (yeah, I did twist your words). Was it Bobby Seale or M.L.King along with Rosa Parks that won civil rights?"
 
- Did the Black Panthers, and Malcolm X play no important role? 
 
 

"Did the Underground Railroad save slaves lives; or burn plantations down and kill the slaves?"
 
- Actually their were groups that burned down plantations after slaves were freed. Keep in mind that what the Underground Railroad did was illegal and unpopular. The media condemned those actions then as they condemn the actions of animal liberators now.
 
"We all know M.K. Gandhi won freedom for India by blowing up British barracks and slaughtering all Indians that supported the Brit's, right? Get my drift yet!"
 
- Wrong, talk to many Indians and they will tell you Gandhi got many innocent people killed unnecessarily. He is not quite as popular in his homeland as he is here.

"Right here in the Food>V&V section haven't you seen folks slamming ALL vegetarians because of the stupid actions of alf and peta members? "
 
- They slam us because of their lack of understanding of the issues their own insecurities or the media's twisting of stories.
 

"Moderation is EXACTLY what gets things changed!"
 
- I would say not, and I don't think anyone who has studied history seriously would disagree.
 
"I've been veggie longer than you've been on this planet (if I recall correctly you're mid-20s)."
 
- Unfortunately that is no indication of comprehension of the topics, and is blatantly ageist.
 
 "Myself and others like me that were 'quietly' veggie are what caused the surge of veggies in the '70s. As folks became veggie they automatically began to care more about the condition of animals. It's just a normal by-product of a 'gentler' form of life! Patience is a virtue and we all need that as we break cycles that have been ingrained in human conciousness for thousands of years."
 

- So what do you suggest that we wait another thousand years until people wake up? The sixties and seventies are over, we don't have time for all that hippie stuff now. Animals are dieing. It's too late to let people come to vegetarianism on their own terms. We need to bring it to them.
 
 "Your too young to remeber the days when it was considered 'normal and no big deal' to drown excess dogs and cats as one small example of how conditions have improved. How about bull and **** fights? No big deal when I was young but now the vast majority of people are disgusted with the situation!"
 
- That's wonderful but now instead of drowning, dogs and cats are euthanized or sold to class B dealers who sell the animals into medical research. That's hardly a victory for the animals.
 
 "Aren't you in Chicago where they're banning Fois gras?"
 
- I am.
 

"Even though ineffective (and misguided) look at all the folks who shun factory animals and seek free-range "foods". As they are slowly made to realize the truth of 'free-range' it'll be veggies like me that will be there to switch them to analogs (fake meats) and away from animals; not peta and/or alf!"
 
- I sure hope so. Although I fear that the blinders of the free range label may take quite a bit of work to remove for many people.
 
 
"Finally(almost), you didn't like me getting in your face did you?? See how it works? You immediatly shut out what I said, didn't you?"
 
-Absolutely not. I took in what you said, however I disagree with it. I like a good debate. No hard feelings here, this is what it's all about.
 
 "That's how people react to peta and alf!"
 
- That's because PETA's acts are mainly adventurism and ineffective, and the ALF gets nothing but bad press as of recently.
 

"That's why if you *really* want to help veggies (and the natural flow to improved conditions for animals) you shoud be supporting the groups that that quietly put the whisper in the doctors ear that vegginess is healthy, that run no-kill shelters, that send letters of concern to regulators."

- Welfarism is not my goal, Abolition is. Wile I would never argue that a longer chain and fewer beatings for a slave would be better then doing nothing to improve his or her condition, I would hardly be content to stop there. I feel the same for animals, they are not ours to use and exploit.
 
"Lastly; you might find it interesting to know that I was a 'charter' member of peta and left somewhere in the mid/late '80s. I left them after they decided that irritating people was a good way to get massive press coverage; without paying attention to what bad press did to the cause!"
 

- As you might find it interesting to know that I really don't like PETA or their methods all that much. The fact that they hire celebritys to appear in their ads and then turn around and kill animals they have rescued due to lack of funds is reason enough to not support them for me.

(Whew, thats long! Happy reading!)

Hi GreenGhost, I have posted my reponce on a diffrent yahoo site becuase this was getting hard to read, the full text of the debate, including my last responce can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggiefacts/message/44

PM me to respond,or you can just post it here if you would like.

Answer 1

OK Matt...I Don't EVER apologize for being veggie but much like real Jews having to apologize for Zionists, real Muslims having to apologize for Wahhabist's and real Christians having to apologize for murderous Fundamentalists I've had more than one occasion where because I am vegetarian I've had to apologize for and explain the difference between REAL vegetarians and the idiotic, immoral and useless actions of peta and alf terrorist stooges!!!!!! Real animal rights believers have the same problem BTW!

Those two groups have a TOTALLY different agenda from any REAL vegetarian group (which is promoting the benefit of a vegetarian diet) and have done more to HURT vegetarianism than any other group (and that includes PETA.com)!

Please stop trying to blur the line between real vegetarianism and those whack-job extremists that aren't really interested in vegetarianism!

Edit:

Wings, you've earned a thumbs-up from me!

Edit:

Matt, my 'rant' is because you have a history here of claiming that those groups are pro-vegetarian and help spread the word about the benefits of vegetarianism! They do nothing of the sort and *hurt* the reputation of real organizations that understand that a positive message and positive actions are the way to sway general public opinion to our side! Alf is a terror group plain and simple! At a bare minimum they have killed one person, injured several others and killed hundreds of animals through their campaign of arson, bombings and targeted assassination! Thanks to alf's record being blamed as veggie extremism you will find that it's extremely difficult for scientists that happen to be veggie to be allowed anywhere near a lab.Vegginess is now considered a security risk! Media doesn't just say alf blew up a research lab, they say things like "Vegetarian animal rights protesters bombed a facility that was working on a cure for the terrible human scourge of Lupus". Then the media gets to report that peta is funding the legal defense of "vegetarian extremists that destroyed a cure for Lupus". I (and other veggies in the region) caught a lot of flak when peta refused to help feed snowbound cattle in Colorado! Veggies in this region caught a LOT of flak over that since *most* Americans automatically think peta (who won't support no-kill animal shelters) represents the mind set of ANYONE that supports veggies or animal welfare!

You claim that no social justice movement ever succeeded with a violent fringe element (yeah, I did twist your words). Was it Bobby Seale or M.L.King along with Rosa Parks that won civil rights? Did the Underground Railroad save slaves lives; or burn plantations down and kill the slaves? We all know M.K. Gandhi won freedom for India by blowing up British barracks and slaughtering all Indians that supported the Brit's, right? Get my drift yet!
Right here in the Food>V&V section haven't you seen folks slamming ALL vegetarians because of the stupid actions of alf and peta members?

Moderation is EXACTLY what gets things changed! I've been veggie longer than you've been on this planet (if I recall correctly you're mid-20s). Myself and others like me that were 'quietly' veggie are what caused the surge of veggies in the '70s. As folks became veggie they automatically began to care more about the condition of animals. It's just a normal by-product of a 'gentler' form of life! Patience is a virtue and we all need that as we break cycles that have been ingrained in human conciousness for thousands of years. Your too young to remeber the days when it was considered 'normal and no big deal' to drown excess dogs and cats as one small example of how conditions have improved. How about bull and cock fights? No big deal when I was young but now the vast majority of people are disgusted with the situation! Aren't you in Chicago where they're banning Fois gras? Even though ineffective (and misguided) look at all the folks who shun factory animals and seek free-range "foods". As they are slowly made to realize the truth of 'free-range' it'll be veggies like me that will be there to switch them to analogs (fake meats) and away from animals; not peta and/or alf!

Finally(almost), you didn't like me getting in your face did you?? See how it works? You immediatly shut out what I said, didn't you? That's how people react to peta and alf! That's why if you *really* want to help veggies (and the natural flow to improved conditions for animals) you shoud be supporting the groups that that quietly put the whisper in the doctors ear that vegginess is healthy, that run no-kill shelters, that send letters of concern to regulators.

Lastly; you might find it interesting to know that I was a 'charter' member of peta and left somewhere in the mid/late '80s. I left them after they decided that irritating people was a good way to get massive press coverage; without paying attention to what bad press did to the cause!

Edit:

OK; I'll start by attempting to bring this back on topic. Where are the posts by "Vegetarian apologists" that you reference?? I've been through most of the database here and just don't see the 'problem'. From the other answers it would appear most agree with me that there is NO problem! Can you cite some examples?

Now back to the fun! To save space I'll mash a bunch of stuff together. I'm surprised you don't support peta since they've been a major source of funding and legal aid for alf and alf members standing trial for crimes like arson, attempted murder, murder etc.It's not just my opinion that alf is a terrorist organization either! Interpol, UK, France, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and the US all list alf as such!
Just to be nice I should warn you that by your support of alf here you are at risk of a nice vacation at Gitmo! Bu__sh__ has been given the 'right' (wrong IMO) to order it. "Homeland Security" does in fact list the death in France as a murder committed by alf! The back porch bomb (if it had worked) would have murdered all residents of that house and was hardly a minor firebomb as you claim. I know of 3 trials of alf members for attempted murders as you should since you claim to support this terrorist organization.

Why would a veggie work in an animal research lab? Solving animal diseases for one! Veggies are now flagged as risky in *any* research environment!

Here's how Colorado should have been handled! Buy the cattle from the ranchers that screwed up (the initial cause of the problem), get food to them to prevent starvation, then when weather permitted conduct a *massive* airlift to no-kill shelters! Media loves pretty pictures and it would have made for great *positive* PR! Scenes of flying cattle followed by kids feeding grass to the rescued animals at a bucolic shelter!

I need to cut short my comments (too late for that). Just got a fault warning from my Inverter stack.

Edit:

I've shot an email to you. I'd rather keep it public (it appears we're the only two left on the question) but don't want to risk another conversation report. Just one thing I want to leave 'public domain' is that you should look at the stock trading activity of companies for the months preceding an alf attack. Someones making a bunch of money short selling...

Answer 2

I suspect it's because so many vegetarians and vegans have been repeatedly attacked for what they believe that they've been made to feel insecure. You've been around this forum for awhile now, too, and you've seen the viciousness of some people toward those who don't follow what society deems as the "norm."

Personally, I'm not the usual thing because I love a good discussion. I'm an old debater from waaaaay back, and if I ruffle a few feathers. . .well, feathers can be found on either eagles or chickens. The other person can either give me a strong, logical argument to support their views or they can turn tail and run.

Either way, I don't intend to apologize for stating my opinion and backing it up with sound logic and as many supporting facts as I can possibly can.

Answer 3

All people with causes can be overzealous. These people feel that there way of life is correct and sadly feel that they must correct the lives of others as well. We have Christain zealots knocking at doors and passing out literature in hopes of saving everyone. We have nonsmokers continually attacking smokers. I would rather be left in peace with my views and have no desire to change anyone else but people with causes just cant seem to let up on others. The Vegan or vegetarian is more like a religious person than a person who has selected an alternative diet. There is no point in arguing, the comments just can be ignored.. When confortned with this type of situation, I merely say that this is an issue on which we can agree to disagree and move on to something else. Or you can keep a number of religous tracts that are found on your door and when the Vegan zealot gets going, you can hand them the pamphlets.

Answer 4

You're making the assumption that everyone should feel the way you do. I've been vegan for 16 years and I really couldn't care less what other people do with their life. Its my choice.

I'll admit that in the back of my mind I'm really hoping that all the jerk off meat eaters that like to give me crap over my diet will get to feel the ill effects of excessive meat consumption.

I understand your question. I can see how thats irritating to you. But consider how those people feel. Maybe they're tired of being associated with people who are more radical. It goes both ways. I have no problem with people being passionate about their beliefs but they also need to accept what comes along with it. Nothing is free. If you have a strong belief, thats fine, just don't expect everyone to fall in line behind you. And if anything, those people who you see as being apologists are who you should be trying to convince of your views. At least they'll understand what you're talking about.

Answer 5

I was a vegetarian for two years and I was a lill joking but I never tried to make people feel bad for eating meat, I have even said it that vegetarianism isn't for everyone. We are omnivores and we do have the teeth for tearing at meat as well. I don't eat pork or beef or any other animal with red meat or is dirty like pigs. Most of my vegtarianism was nessacarily for the animals, I simply think that americans eat too much meat and its using up all our natural resources to feed and water these animals that we eat. For the land it takes to feed one meat eater you could feed 20 vegetarians. that is a lot more than one, we could squelch world hunger if people took in 10 percent less of meat products. But people don't know this. I think that we need to take out the sugar and white starchy foods in our diets. This coutry is morbidly obese and it's because of sugars, starches and preservatives. Anyways I don't think all vegetarians do it but some do like the ones in PETA. They really bother me because they stand outside the circus every year and show the same videos, hello that right there to me says well um they aren't doing it any more if you have the same videos. The animals in Ringling Bros seem to be happy and they would never survive in the wild so why send them to their deaths early. I am not saying that animal abuse doesn't go on in the states but I do know that it is illegal and if Rbros. were doing it the goverment would know abou it and stop it. Over half the videos they show are from over seas so they are not telling the whole truth sometimes, that is why I don't like them as a whole all the time, their heart is in the right place but they need to get the facts straight and fight for something a little more important like telling people how many resources it takes to feed a cow that will feed a handful of people for a day. That isn't a wasted effort.

*edit*thanks to the peta supporter who gave me the thumbs down, you know it's true you guys fight for the wrong reasons...

Answer 6

I've never apologised for my feelings on the subject. Everyone I know knows that I am vegetarian, that I believe we do not have the right to eat animals, or to abuse them in any other way. If I am asked to justify my feelings, I generally tell people what prompted me to go vegetarian in the first place, and leave it at that.
I don't try to convert anyone, though if they ask for information, for instance on animal cruelty, I give them the full story, no punches pulled.
I believe that everyone has the right to make their own decision on what to eat. I have pointed people in the direction of maybe the Vegetarian Society website so they can peruse the information in their own time.
But a little like religion, I don't feel it's right to force your own feelings and beliefs down other people's throats if they don't wish to hear them.
The only apologies I would wish to hear would be from meat-eaters apologising to animals for supporting the vile treatment of them!

Answer 7

What is an apologist ??
You have to agree to disagree on this subject with some people.

Answer 8

I think you got way to much time on your hands, fella.