Why do Xians call it "Free Will' when all it amounts to is a threat?

Question

"God gave us free will. There are 2 choices, accept that He sent His Son to die for us and rose again to show we too can defeat death (hell) or reject Him and pay the eternal consequences." ~ Answer to another question.

I couldn't have come up with a better example of an ultimatum if I tried.

"ultimatum.
Main Entry: ul·ti·ma·tum
Pronunciation: "&l-t&-'mA-t&m, -'mä-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -tums or ul·ti·ma·ta /-t&/
Etymology: New Latin, from Medieval Latin, neuter of ultimatus final
: a final proposition, condition, or demand; especially : one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action" http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=ultimatum

That's not free will. That's a point blank threat.

It's the equivalent of : "Do what I say or I'll hurt you!"

Minister, I find it endlessly amusing how many Xians don't know the origins of X meaning Christos (Christ), and assuming that it's disrespectful. It was the Greek Xians who first made use of t in "Xmas". Don't believe me? Do the research. It's your religion, and it's pretty sad that I have to point these things out to you.

You confuse rationality and curiosity with bitterness and hostility? Interesting.

Pilgrim, that's brilliant! I'm actually inigued by this line of thinking. I had been envisioning a god as a fear monger/terrorist. Truly, I hadn't thought of it in the way you illustrated.

And it's a breath of fresh air after all the typical ignorant Fundie answers I got. Thank you for taking the time to answer. I appreciate it.

arewethereyet: speaking of typical fundie answers... "wait until you grow up!" And an insult throw into the mix. *eyeroll*

Answer 1

It's not a threat. It's a promise.

I understand your proposition and it is fair. I look at it a different way however. If I had a friend who lived on the moon...and he said if you want to visit me you will need a space suit then I would have a choice to make. If I am not prepare to wear the suit we can't be friends. God lives in a holy environment - if you walk in a sinner you will be fried - it's just a property of His being - sin can't survive in his presence. You need to wear the robe of righteousness which He is willing to provide. I bet if hell was merely a place like earth where God would leave you alone you wouldn't care so much about this threat. It's almost like He knew our achilles heel...Death by fire.

Answer 2

The "ultimatum" may be quite sound but your "free will" isn't. "Free" in the "will" stakes is in distinction to determinism (which states that we do not choose). It does not here contrast with, say, "slavery" or "expensive" or "tethered" ("the ship became untethered and drifted free around the harbour").

The concept of "free will" states that we have a choice. In fact the very concept of an ultimatum supports the existence of free will. "Your money or your life!" is of absolutely no import if whether you are going to give me the money or not is pre-determined. The mugger only waves the gun/knife in the victims face because the end result is in doubt.

"I had no choice" is almost always, strictly speaking, incorrect and more usually translates as "I had choices but none of them were good". Taking your respondents answer (at face value and not saying either of us agree with it) it is clear that you DO have a choice. One of them is a pretty bad choice, but there is still a choice and to make that choice "free will" is needed.

Answer 3

I'm learning new things everyday. Today I've learned that an avatar named "minister" is the judge on issues of offensive nature. To quote him/her: "If I am Offended, then it is Offensive". That's the most awesome logic I've ever heard.

Let's see how this works. I find a God who lies to me, offensive. Very offensive. A God who tells I'll burn in Hell forever and in the same sentence can tell me he loves me so much, IS a huge liar. Any follower Xian of this god, offends me in quoting this so called loving god.

Minsiter said, and I quote: "Why not just happily accept Christ as your LORD, and Savior, not because He's threatened you, but because He Loves You, He Really Does !"......

If I am Offended, then it is Offensive. Therefore, Minister is offensive. I also find any ultimatum very offensive. Therefor: God is highly offensive.

Answer 4

So what to you would be a "fair" choice? If you think that God's options for you (to either accept that He is God or die) is an unfair choice, what would be fair?

Should He have said "Well, you can worship Me if you want, but if you don't, that's okay, you can come on in to Heaven if you want"?

If you are displeased about having good choices and bad choices all mixed together, wait until you grow up! Life is full of options, and some are good and some are bad, but you have the "free will" to decide which one you will choose.

Answer 5

Agreed.

This question is further explored in Nicolas Berdyaev's "The Destiny of Man"- an early 1900's work on ethics. He supposes that "Free Will" isn't enough for actual choice- rather that "Freedom" itself requires actual freedom within evil as well as freedom from it.

Still, God's Ultimatum has inspired many of us, you know.

Answer 6

Alex,
I see that you disrespect God, Christ, and Christians by your use of an Offensive Abbreviation.

Nevertheless, God knows that we are hopelessly lost, and made provision for us. Your bitterness, and hostile attitude is clouding your judgment. Why not just happily accept Christ as your LORD, and Savior, not because He's threatened you, but because He Loves You, He Really Does !


The "X" is NOT a valid abbreviation, and never has been, but even were it in the distant past in the Greek, it is NOT NOW. Perception is everything. If I am Offended, then it is Offensive. Just like whistling at a co - worker may not be meant as Offensive by the Whistler, but the co - worker is Offended, therefore it is Offensive. Your "X" Offends me.

Answer 7

I think you are reading into it too much. That isn't what the gospel is about.

You should download "the true nature of God" sermon from this site if you are genuinely interested in finding out. Click on extras on the left module, then click on audio teachings

Answer 8

Congrats. You did it. You finally figured out that if you follow His way you won't go to hell. Ultimatum in your eyes maybe but it is truth. You can choose to follow him or not. It is called FREE WILL!!! If you get to make a decision on your own for yourself to do what you want it is called FREE WILL!!

Answer 9

Since God created everything He can also make His own rules.

Answer 10

it also depends on the christian you talk to.
babes in christ will blow their vocal chords out yelling and screaming while experience and wisdom teach a man to agree and walk away.